Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381, Y3140 > FGC12378, Y3142

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Found something I was previously unaware of.
23andme has a page for FGC12401, using an alternate name Y10984 or long hand R1b1a2a1a2b1c1b3a1

FGC12401, Y10984 relates to this thread as follows

Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381, Y3140 > FGC12378, Y3142 > FGC47869 > FGC12401, Y10984

https://discover.23andme.com/haplogroup/...1-paternal

On reddit I discovered another FGC12401, Y10984 surname.   Emerton from Bedfordshire.  

Another Reddit poster said Y10984 was 1 in 7700 customers. If there are 14 million total and 7 million men the 1 in 7700 would over 900 FGC12401 men. Compared to 17 in the FTDNA database. 23and me introduced v5 chip in 2017 and at that time data base was 2 million so it maybe a million or 2 less than 14 million. But even if there were 6 million men on the new chip that would still be ~780 men

[Mitchell-Atkins]

U152>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875 is split into 2 branches:  My FGC12384 branch and the BY5698 branch.

The BY5698 branch has multiple surnames derived from the first name Robert I.e. Roberts, Robertson, Robbinson.

Per ChatGPT

During the Norman Conquest of England (1066), the name Robert was introduced by the Normans, who derived it from the Old High German Hrodebert. The Normans brought many Germanic and Frankish names that became common in England.

Historical Sources and Figures:
1. Domesday Book (1086)
• Commissioned by William the Conqueror, this extensive survey of England records several individuals named Robert, indicating the name’s presence among the Norman elite.
2. Notable Norman Roberts:
• Robert of Normandy (Robert Curthose) – Eldest son of William the Conqueror.
• Robert de Mortain – Half-brother of William and a major landowner in England post-1066.
• Robert de Beaumont – A Norman noble who fought at the Battle of Hastings and later became Earl of Leicester.
3. Medieval Latin Records:
• Many documents from the 12th century (charters, land grants, and church records) list Robert as Robertus, reflecting its Latinized form used in official records.
4. Anglo-Norman Influence:
• The Normans used Robert widely among the nobility, leading to the development of patronymic surnames like Robertson, Roberts, and Robillard in later centuries.

Old High German territory in Green


So this may be a clue that the BY5698 branch arrived in Britain via the Normans; who may have come from the Franks in the Old High German area…which includes the eastern part of the previously mentioned FGC47869 polygon.

From wiki page on Franks
“Christopher Wickham pointed out that "the word 'Frankish' quickly ceased to have an exclusive ethnic connotation. North of the River Loire everyone seems to have been considered a Frank by the mid-7th century at the latest (except Bretons); Romani (Romans) were essentially the inhabitants of Aquitaine after that"

Whether my FGC12384 branch was part of this is tbd.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Another tidbit from wiki and ChatGPT

During the late 3rd and early 4th centuries, Roman emperors Maximian and Constantius Chlorus engaged in large-scale military campaigns along the Rhine frontier, particularly in Germania Inferior (roughly modern-day Netherlands, Belgium, and western Germany). As part of their efforts to secure the Roman borders and repopulate devastated regions, they deported large numbers of Franks, Chamavi, and other Germanic groups from Germania Inferior.

Where Were They Deported?
1. Northern Gaul (modern France and Belgium)
• Many of the deported populations were settled in depopulated areas of northern Gaul, particularly in regions that had been ravaged by previous Germanic incursions.
• The Chamavi and other tribes were likely settled as laeti (semi-autonomous foederati or military settlers) in areas such as Belgica Secunda and Germania Secunda (modern northern France and Belgium).
2. Brittany and Western Gaul
• Some of these groups may have been moved further west to regions such as Armorica (Brittany), where they were used as farmers and soldiers to bolster defenses against future raids.
3. Britannia (Roman Britain)
• Under Constantius Chlorus, some deported groups were sent to Britain, particularly after his campaign against the usurper Carausius (r. 286–293) and his successor Allectus.
• They may have been settled in regions like the Saxon Shore forts, where they helped guard against future invasions.
4. Italia and the Danube Region
• Some war captives or deported populations might have been moved to Italy or even along the Danube frontier, where Rome often resettled Germanic tribes as soldiers or workers.

Besides Britain, BY5698 has a subclade with an Italian and a Hungarian.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Exploring the possibility that L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875
in Britain originated in Roman Era Pannonia;

Per https://www.academia.edu/keypass/dklGYWJ...card=title

Cultural and ethnic identity in the Roman military: a study of the Roman cemetery at Brougham in Cumbria
 
A dissertation submitted to The University of Manchester for the degree of Master of Arts Archaeology
 
2008, Robert Matthew, School of Arts, Histories and Cultures

the soldiers stationed at Brougham were not from the Mediterranean world, but were almost certainly raised in Pannonia, as an irregular unit or numerus (Cool 2005a, Webster 1985:150), who maintained a number of their own burial rituals and traditions, over a hundred years of occupation of this site.

The epigraphic evidence for the identity of the unit stationed at Brougham in the third century is slight – only a single inscription provides an indication, naming the unit as Numerus equitum Stratonicianorum  1, no.780; Wilmott 2004:8).  This can be translated to ‘unit of cavalry from the city of Stratonicaea…the numerus stationed at Brougham would most likely have fallen [into the categories of], patrolling and guarding the route along the river Eden towards Carlisle and the frontier line of Hadrian’s Wall

The military presence in Pannonia was always significant; by the second century, around 10% of the entire fighting force of the Roman Empire was stationed in the province, roughly 50,000 soldiers making up three legions, the rest being auxiliary cohortesand alae (Lőrincz 2003:28).  This is a garrison of comparable size to the British garrison, which also had around 50,000 soldiers at this time (James 2001:77).

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Posted here for reference:

With riverman's inputs and assistance in this thread, a hypothesis on how FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875's subclades ended up in Britain, Hungary, and Italy.

Looking at the cultures, movements east to west, west to east, and timelines:

1.  FGC12378 and subclade FGC47869 are in Tumulus Culture north of the Alps, centered on southern Germany from upper Rhine in the west  to upper Austria in the east.

2.  As the FGC47869>FGC12401 13 SNP block develops, they possibly moved east into Carpathian Basin with Tumulus, where the Urnfield Culture develops, and then back west near their Tumulus homeland, where the Hallstatt Culture takes shape.

3.  Here, FGC12401>FGC47875 subclades FGC12384 and BY5698 form (~1000-600 BC)

4.  BY5698>BY33575 becomes part of the Eastern Hallstatt group, with descendants eventually turning up in Hungary and Italy.

5.  Meanwhile,  BY5698>BY12085 and FGC12384 become part of the Western Hallstatt and succeeding La Tene cultures.  Their descendants eventually arrive in Britain, via Gaul, during this period or the Roman Era (ie ~800 BC to 400 AD)

Subject to changes as new info comes to light.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Moving some info over from the old anthrogenica thread.
Per FGC12378 ancient sample R3747

From the supplementary data here

Zadar, Croatia
Collaborators: Mario Novak, Timka Alihodžić
Coordinates: 44.114352, 15.227943
Individuals (n=6): R3745, R3746, R3747, R3742, R3743, R3744
Zadar is a city situated on the eastern Adriatic coast in modern-day Croatia. Julius
Caesar founded Zadar as a Roman colony in 48 BC (Colonia Iulia Iader) although the
city was inhabited at least from the early Iron Age by the local population called Liburni.
Iader was part of the Roman province Dalmatia and it was primarily settled by veterans
from Italy . The city was situated on the peninsula and organized on principles of Roman
urbanism with major streets intersected at right angles surrounded by massive stone
walls. Zadar was primarily an agricultural colony with a large seaport, thermae, a public
square (forum) and an elevated capitolium with a temple. A 40 km long aqueduct
brought drinking water to the city. In 481 Dalmatia became part of the Ostrogothic
kingdom, which is the period of decline for the city when many civic buildings were
ruined due to the advanced age and negligence. At the beginning of the 6th century it
wa[censored] by an earthquake, which destroyed entire complexes in the city.
Due to urban construction, rescue excavations of the Roman necropolis in Relja city
district were carried out between 2005 and 2014 by the Archaeological Museum Zadar
(Timka Alihodžić). The necropolis was located about 0.5 km meters from the city walls
along the road leading to the southeast (province capital of Salona). Together with
previous excavations the total number of recovered burials is around 2500 (inhumations
and cremations) thus making this site one of the largest Roman period cemeteries on
the Adriatic. Inhumation burials from this site are dated between the 1st and 5th/6th
century CE.

And associated map for R3747 from ph2ter.  It appears to match the "primarily settled by veterans
from Italy" comment above.

[Webb]

I wasn't sure if you were aware of this sample or not.  I guess the raw data was released from "Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages", 
Hugh McColl et al.  Teepean ran the raw data through SNIPSA, which matches the call made by the authors in the supplemental spreadsheet and sample CGG023693 appears to be:

U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222 

CGG023693, Bourgogne_Franche_Compt,  Les_Moidons, Barrow, 750BCE,  Hallstatt.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

I wasn't sure if you were aware of this sample or not.  I guess the raw data was released from "Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages", 
Hugh McColl et al.  Teepean ran the raw data through SNIPSA, which matches the call made by the authors in the supplemental spreadsheet and sample CGG023693 appears to be:

U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222 

CGG023693, Bourgogne_Franche_Compt,  Les_Moidons, Barrow, 750BCE,  Hallstatt.

Yeah, I've got a Z142 thread and he's in my first post
https://genarchivist.net/showthread.php?tid=799

But thank you nonetheless

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Besides the Moselle La Tene group, the Treveri and Mediomatrici tribe were found in this area. 

The Treveri were a Celtic (Gaulish) tribe from the Trier area of modern day western Germany. Gaulish cavalry units were used extensively throughout the Roman Empire because of their skills on horseback and fierceness in battle. wiki

There is evidence some Treveri were in Britain as part of the Roman Auxiliaries

The Lancaster Roman Tombstone: Interpretation inscription at bottom of this statute
"To the shades of the dead: Insus, Son of Vodullus, Citizen of Treveri, Cavalryman Curator of the Ala Augusta, troop of Victor." Domitia, his heir, had this set up.  

The first thing we can tell is that Insus was not a Roman citizen: he does not have the tria nomina, or triple name a Roman citizen would have. Citizenship was awarded on retirement from the Roman auxilia, so it seems likely Insus died in service. That his family could afford a quality memorial also suggests he was reasonably wealthy. His inscription records he was Treveri, from Trier in Western Germany. The Treveri had lost their independence after participating in an uprising against Julius Caesar’s Rome in 54/3BC, which the Romans put down, and they became a Roman colony from 16AD.

Insus was a Curator of his regiment: a supply officer equivalent to a quartermaster, a junior non-commissioned officer. This role required some responsibility and literacy. The Latin term Curator is still used in museums, where Curators are like quartermasters of museum collections: they ‘look after’ our objects, just as the Roman Curator ‘looked after’ military supplies, men, and horses.

There is no date on the stone noting when it was put up, but we can estimate this from Insus’ troop, the Ala Augusta ‘Victor’. Of the Ala, flanks or wings of infantry troops of about 500-1000 men, there were several called Augusta in Britain over the centuries. An Ala Augusta was stationed at Lancaster in the first century AD, and was only described as ‘Victor’ for a brief period, which allows us to estimate the date the tombstone was put up to 80AD.



Insus...presumably joined the ala [Ala was a cavalry unit of the auxiliary troops in the Roman army] on the Continent before it was transferred to Britain. Insus is not a Roman name and its presentation here in non-tria nomina format and with no reference to veteran status may suggest that Insus has been killed whilst still serving. The most straightforward assumption is that Insus has died in Britain and that the headless enemy is a Briton. Given what we know about bilingualism in the north-western provinces, it is likely that someone named Insus, son of Vodullus, from Gaul in c. AD 100 came from a family that was at least partly Celtic-speaking. Trier was capital of Gallia Belgica and we know that the Celtic languages of northern Gaul were closely related to the British Celtic spoken in Britannia. This Treveran citizen, who is proudly presented in a north-western Roman military and Latin guise, would perhaps have found much more in common linguistically and culturally with the beheaded Briton than this portrayal might lead us to believe.

A reconstruction of how Insus may have appeared in life by Graham Summers

Just came across a pinterest post that is better quality that what I had previously posted