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(03-26-2025, 07:10 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: Really interesting how different I12092 (U106) looks from the later crowd:
Genetic.ID Locality Period Steppe_EBA
KH150625 Niedertiefenbach MN_Wartberg 0.051
SWA002 Swifterbant S2 EN_Swifterbant 0.039
I33741 Sijbekarspel Op de Veken LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.105
I12902 Mienakker LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.141 U106
I13026 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.656
I5750 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.531
I4069 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.547
I4068 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.599
I4075 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.588
I13027 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.566
I5748 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.65 DF19>Z302
I12900 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.636 DF19>Z302
I13028 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.621 DF19>DF88
I13025 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.623 U106
I4073 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.626
I4074 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.618
I39211 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.562
I4067 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.566
I4071 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.507
I20063 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.597
I4070 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.582
I4076 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.586
Or instead of Steppe, German CWC:
Genetic.ID Locality Period Germany_CordedWare
KH150625 Niedertiefenbach MN_Wartberg 0.07
SWA002 Swifterbant S2 EN_Swifterbant 0.053
I33741 Sijbekarspel Op de Veken LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.141
I12902 Mienakker LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.191
I13026 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.896
I5750 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.726
I4069 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.748
I4068 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.815
I4075 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.802
I13027 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.773
I5748 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.893
I12900 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.87
I13028 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.851
I13025 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.85
I4073 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.855
I4074 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.845
I39211 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.77
I4067 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.775
I4071 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.691
I20063 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.818
I4070 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.797
I4076 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.8
If we assume that the classic bell beaker people are really associated with P312 ancestry, could it be that in the Netherlands a bell beaker group with DF19 expanded and "bell-beakerized" a corded ware group dominated by U106, merged with them and spread later till Jutland and that for some reason the U106 got dominant in this joint group?
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(03-26-2025, 07:31 PM)Orentil Wrote: (03-26-2025, 07:10 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: Really interesting how different I12092 (U106) looks from the later crowd:
Genetic.ID Locality Period Steppe_EBA
KH150625 Niedertiefenbach MN_Wartberg 0.051
SWA002 Swifterbant S2 EN_Swifterbant 0.039
I33741 Sijbekarspel Op de Veken LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.105
I12902 Mienakker LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.141 U106
I13026 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.656
I5750 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.531
I4069 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.547
I4068 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.599
I4075 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.588
I13027 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.566
I5748 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.65 DF19>Z302
I12900 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.636 DF19>Z302
I13028 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.621 DF19>DF88
I13025 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.623 U106
I4073 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.626
I4074 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.618
I39211 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.562
I4067 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.566
I4071 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.507
I20063 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.597
I4070 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.582
I4076 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.586
Or instead of Steppe, German CWC:
Genetic.ID Locality Period Germany_CordedWare
KH150625 Niedertiefenbach MN_Wartberg 0.07
SWA002 Swifterbant S2 EN_Swifterbant 0.053
I33741 Sijbekarspel Op de Veken LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.141
I12902 Mienakker LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.191
I13026 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.896
I5750 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.726
I4069 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.748
I4068 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.815
I4075 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.802
I13027 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.773
I5748 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.893
I12900 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.87
I13028 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.851
I13025 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.85
I4073 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.855
I4074 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.845
I39211 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.77
I4067 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.775
I4071 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.691
I20063 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.818
I4070 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.797
I4076 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.8
If we assume that the classic bell beaker people are really associated with P312 ancestry, could it be that in the Netherlands a bell beaker group with DF19 expanded and "bell-beakerized" a corded ware group dominated by U106, merged with them and spread later till Jutland and that for some reason the U106 got dominant in this joint group?
Or maybe some P312* branches of DF19's ancestors and "uncle" U106 were close together all along, but I12092's family took an earlier high-WHG path west?
There are a lot of things happening in a relatively short span of time. All U106 has TMRCA of ~3000 BCE. P312 ~2900 BCE, DF19 ~2600 BCE.
R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149
Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583; John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593; John Wing (U106>Z8>Z1) b1584; John Howland (U106>Z8>Z1) b1593; Elizabeth Tilley (Howland) (H1a1 mtDNA) b1607; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635
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(03-26-2025, 07:46 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: (03-26-2025, 07:31 PM)Orentil Wrote: (03-26-2025, 07:10 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: Really interesting how different I12092 (U106) looks from the later crowd:
Genetic.ID Locality Period Steppe_EBA
KH150625 Niedertiefenbach MN_Wartberg 0.051
SWA002 Swifterbant S2 EN_Swifterbant 0.039
I33741 Sijbekarspel Op de Veken LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.105
I12902 Mienakker LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.141 U106
I13026 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.656
I5750 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.531
I4069 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.547
I4068 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.599
I4075 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.588
I13027 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.566
I5748 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.65 DF19>Z302
I12900 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.636 DF19>Z302
I13028 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.621 DF19>DF88
I13025 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.623 U106
I4073 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.626
I4074 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.618
I39211 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.562
I4067 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.566
I4071 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.507
I20063 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.597
I4070 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.582
I4076 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.586
Or instead of Steppe, German CWC:
Genetic.ID Locality Period Germany_CordedWare
KH150625 Niedertiefenbach MN_Wartberg 0.07
SWA002 Swifterbant S2 EN_Swifterbant 0.053
I33741 Sijbekarspel Op de Veken LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.141
I12902 Mienakker LNA_Vlaardingen/CordedWare 0.191
I13026 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.896
I5750 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.726
I4069 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.748
I4068 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.815
I4075 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.802
I13027 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.773
I5748 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.893
I12900 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.87
I13028 Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.851
I13025 Molenaarsgraaf LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.85
I4073 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.855
I4074 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.845
I39211 Oostwoud LNB_Bell_Beaker 0.77
I4067 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.775
I4071 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.691
I20063 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.818
I4070 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.797
I4076 Oostwoud Early Bronze Age 0.8
If we assume that the classic bell beaker people are really associated with P312 ancestry, could it be that in the Netherlands a bell beaker group with DF19 expanded and "bell-beakerized" a corded ware group dominated by U106, merged with them and spread later till Jutland and that for some reason the U106 got dominant in this joint group?
Or maybe some P312* branches of DF19's ancestors and "uncle" U106 were close together all along, but I12092's family took an earlier high-WHG path west?
There are a lot of things happening in a relatively short span of time. All U106 has TMRCA of ~3000 BCE. P312 ~2900 BCE, DF19 ~2600 BCE.
Bell beakers in Jutland start at around 2350 BC, 250 years after the TMRCA of DF19.
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mtDNA (P): H1j
(03-26-2025, 07:55 PM)Orentil Wrote: (03-26-2025, 07:46 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: (03-26-2025, 07:31 PM)Orentil Wrote: If we assume that the classic bell beaker people are really associated with P312 ancestry, could it be that in the Netherlands a bell beaker group with DF19 expanded and "bell-beakerized" a corded ware group dominated by U106, merged with them and spread later till Jutland and that for some reason the U106 got dominant in this joint group?
Or maybe some P312* branches of DF19's ancestors and "uncle" U106 were close together all along, but I12092's family took an earlier high-WHG path west?
There are a lot of things happening in a relatively short span of time. All U106 has TMRCA of ~3000 BCE. P312 ~2900 BCE, DF19 ~2600 BCE.
Bell beakers in Jutland start at around 2350 BC, 250 years after the TMRCA of DF19.
And there is supposed to be a Veluwe<>Jutland network, and U106 I13025 was buried with Veluwe Beaker. If they could just find a few U106 and DF19 in Beaker Jutland this would really simplify things.
Quote:The Beaker group in northern Jutland forms an integrated part of the western European Beaker Culture, while western Jutland provided a link between the Lower Rhine area and northern Jutland. The local fine-ware pottery of Beaker derivation reveal links with other Beaker regions in western Europe, most specifically the Veluwe group at the Lower Rhine (Netherlands). Concurrent introduction of metallurgy shows that some people must have crossed cultural boundaries. Danish Beakers are contemporary with the earliest Early Bronze Age (EBA) of the East Group of Bell Beakers in central Europe, and with the floruit of Beaker cultures of the West Group in western Europe. The latter comprise Veluwe and Epi-Maritime in Continental northwestern Europe and the Middle Style Beakers (Style 2) in insular western Europe.
The interaction between the Beaker groups on the Veluwe Plain and in Jutland must, at least initially, have been quite intensive. All-over ornamented (AOO) and All-over-corded (AOC), and particularly Maritime style beakers are featured, although from a fairly late context and possibly rather of Epi-maritime style, equivalent to the situation in the north of the Netherlands, where Maritime ornamentation continued after it ceased in the central region of Veluwe and were succeeded c. 2300 BC by beakers of the Veluwe and Epi-Maritime style.[24]
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R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149
Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583; John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593; John Wing (U106>Z8>Z1) b1584; John Howland (U106>Z8>Z1) b1593; Elizabeth Tilley (Howland) (H1a1 mtDNA) b1607; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635
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(03-26-2025, 08:14 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: (03-26-2025, 07:55 PM)Orentil Wrote: (03-26-2025, 07:46 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: Or maybe some P312* branches of DF19's ancestors and "uncle" U106 were close together all along, but I12092's family took an earlier high-WHG path west?
There are a lot of things happening in a relatively short span of time. All U106 has TMRCA of ~3000 BCE. P312 ~2900 BCE, DF19 ~2600 BCE.
Bell beakers in Jutland start at around 2350 BC, 250 years after the TMRCA of DF19.
And there is supposed to be a Veluwe<>Jutland network, and U106 I13025 was buried with Veluwe Beaker. If they could just find a few U106 and DF19 in Beaker Jutland this would really simplify things. 
Quote:The Beaker group in northern Jutland forms an integrated part of the western European Beaker Culture, while western Jutland provided a link between the Lower Rhine area and northern Jutland. The local fine-ware pottery of Beaker derivation reveal links with other Beaker regions in western Europe, most specifically the Veluwe group at the Lower Rhine (Netherlands). Concurrent introduction of metallurgy shows that some people must have crossed cultural boundaries. Danish Beakers are contemporary with the earliest Early Bronze Age (EBA) of the East Group of Bell Beakers in central Europe, and with the floruit of Beaker cultures of the West Group in western Europe. The latter comprise Veluwe and Epi-Maritime in Continental northwestern Europe and the Middle Style Beakers (Style 2) in insular western Europe.
The interaction between the Beaker groups on the Veluwe Plain and in Jutland must, at least initially, have been quite intensive. All-over ornamented (AOO) and All-over-corded (AOC), and particularly Maritime style beakers are featured, although from a fairly late context and possibly rather of Epi-maritime style, equivalent to the situation in the north of the Netherlands, where Maritime ornamentation continued after it ceased in the central region of Veluwe and were succeeded c. 2300 BC by beakers of the Veluwe and Epi-Maritime style.[24]
Indeed, assuming DF19 as the link between Dutch bell beakers and U106 dominated but DF19 containing bell beaker groups in Jutland would solve some questions I always had.
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03-26-2025, 10:18 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2025, 10:21 PM by rmstevens2.)
Here are a couple of mysteries that remain to be solved:
1. Since Beaker in Britain is thought to have come from the Netherlands, why has no DF19 or U106 been found in British Beaker?
2. Since most British Beaker is L21 (DF13, actually), why haven't we found it in Dutch Beaker? (It hasn't been found in continental Beaker anywhere else either, and neither has its immediate ancestor Z290.)
I'm thinking the main problem with regard to L21 in the Netherlands is that it was probably in the uplands, where the acid soils ate ancient skeletons. I don't know why no DF19 or U106 has turned up in British Beaker.
Of course, we also don't yet have any P312 or any of its subclades in CW either, and you know damned well it was present.
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.
- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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03-26-2025, 10:22 PM
(This post was last modified: 03-26-2025, 10:25 PM by NewEnglander.)
(03-25-2025, 06:11 PM)Strider99 Wrote: (03-25-2025, 06:05 PM)Kale Wrote: (03-25-2025, 06:02 PM)Strider99 Wrote: About the uniparentals:
All Neolithic men (n=42 excluding close relatives) belong to Y-chromosome lineages common in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (haplogroups I2a, R1b-V88 and C1a).
C1a is NOT a Mesolithic lineage!
I wonder if these Neolithic samples will have something like Anatolian-derived C-V3163, in which case their conclusion about HG-mediated paternal lines would of course be wrong. Fortunately, there's still time for them to correct that if that's the case, since it's only a pre-print.
(03-26-2025, 06:18 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: (03-26-2025, 06:02 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: (03-26-2025, 03:56 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: Okay, first off, it's three, not two (I13028 at the same site as I12900), and second, you'd think they'd find it more significant that so far every single P312+ sample that has any SNP below it in CW/early Beaker NLD is DF19+ (two very recently-formed CW/Beaker era branches out of the four known, the other two DF19 subclades are not yet found in ancients).
So this is NOT the same branch of a common population that is moving into the Isles (they are L21 so far). Perhaps they will find both DF19 and L21 in a Meuse/Rhine common area but maybe the pops are too low at that point for anything to be found.
I posted this over in the R1b-L21 thread awhile back, but it's worth mentioning again.
I don't put much stock in modern Y-DNA distribution, but this map is interesting, since thus far no Dutch Beaker samples from the high-L21 areas east of the broken line in the Netherlands have been tested. So far, the only Dutch Beaker samples we have come from sites 1, 2 and 3.
![[Image: R1b-L21-frequency-map-modern-Netherlands...d-line.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/NFcsrHM8/R1b-L21-frequency-map-modern-Netherlands-w-BB-samples-and-line.jpg)
I'm all for more discoveries and testing!
One possible complication from modern L21 in the Netherlands may be the Puritan era. For instance, my "British" I2 9th great grandfather, John Cooke (Mayflower passenger with his dad) was born in Leiden in 1606.
Do you know how many permanently settled in the Netherlands? I actually think a lot more of the migration was the other way around: Flemings and Dutch to England. As a Puritan descendant myself I’ve become quite interested with the migration of Fleming/Dutch to areas like East Anglia, where many Puritans migrated from.
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(03-26-2025, 10:22 PM)NewEnglander Wrote: (03-25-2025, 06:11 PM)Strider99 Wrote: (03-25-2025, 06:05 PM)Kale Wrote: C1a is NOT a Mesolithic lineage!
I wonder if these Neolithic samples will have something like Anatolian-derived C-V3163, in which case their conclusion about HG-mediated paternal lines would of course be wrong. Fortunately, there's still time for them to correct that if that's the case, since it's only a pre-print.
(03-26-2025, 06:18 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: (03-26-2025, 06:02 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: I posted this over in the R1b-L21 thread awhile back, but it's worth mentioning again.
I don't put much stock in modern Y-DNA distribution, but this map is interesting, since thus far no Dutch Beaker samples from the high-L21 areas east of the broken line in the Netherlands have been tested. So far, the only Dutch Beaker samples we have come from sites 1, 2 and 3.
![[Image: R1b-L21-frequency-map-modern-Netherlands...d-line.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/NFcsrHM8/R1b-L21-frequency-map-modern-Netherlands-w-BB-samples-and-line.jpg)
I'm all for more discoveries and testing!
One possible complication from modern L21 in the Netherlands may be the Puritan era. For instance, my "British" I2 9th great grandfather, John Cooke (Mayflower passenger with his dad) was born in Leiden in 1606.
Do you know how many permanently settled in the Netherlands? I actually think a lot of the more of the migration was the other way around: Flemings and Dutch to England. As a Puritan descendant myself I’ve become quite interested with the migration of Fleming/Dutch to areas like East Anglia, where many Puritans migrated from.
I don't and you're right: I'm pretty sure more went the other way (west) from Migration on through the industrial age.
R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149
Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583; John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593; John Wing (U106>Z8>Z1) b1584; John Howland (U106>Z8>Z1) b1593; Elizabeth Tilley (Howland) (H1a1 mtDNA) b1607; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635
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(03-26-2025, 10:22 PM)NewEnglander Wrote: (03-25-2025, 06:11 PM)Strider99 Wrote: (03-25-2025, 06:05 PM)Kale Wrote: C1a is NOT a Mesolithic lineage!
I wonder if these Neolithic samples will have something like Anatolian-derived C-V3163, in which case their conclusion about HG-mediated paternal lines would of course be wrong. Fortunately, there's still time for them to correct that if that's the case, since it's only a pre-print.
(03-26-2025, 06:18 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: (03-26-2025, 06:02 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: I posted this over in the R1b-L21 thread awhile back, but it's worth mentioning again.
I don't put much stock in modern Y-DNA distribution, but this map is interesting, since thus far no Dutch Beaker samples from the high-L21 areas east of the broken line in the Netherlands have been tested. So far, the only Dutch Beaker samples we have come from sites 1, 2 and 3.
![[Image: R1b-L21-frequency-map-modern-Netherlands...d-line.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/NFcsrHM8/R1b-L21-frequency-map-modern-Netherlands-w-BB-samples-and-line.jpg)
I'm all for more discoveries and testing!
One possible complication from modern L21 in the Netherlands may be the Puritan era. For instance, my "British" I2 9th great grandfather, John Cooke (Mayflower passenger with his dad) was born in Leiden in 1606.
Do you know how many permanently settled in the Netherlands? I actually think a lot of the more of the migration was the other way around: Flemings and Dutch to England. As a Puritan descendant myself I’ve become quite interested with the migration of Fleming/Dutch to areas like East Anglia, where many Puritans migrated from.
I'm also a Puritan descendant myself, mainly through a paternal second great-grandmother, Olive Augusta Washburn. A bunch of my relatives were members of the Mayflower Society.
I believe you're right. Besides that, weren't most of the Puritans from East Anglia and thereabouts? That area, as I recall, has a relatively low frequency of L21, at least when compared with most places in Britain. It's high in I-M253 and R-U106. My Washburn line, for example, belongs to a clade downstream of I-M253.
I also doubt many, if any, of the Puritans who went to the Netherlands settled out in the eastern upland boonies, where L21 has its highest modern Dutch frequency.
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(03-26-2025, 10:18 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: Here are a couple of mysteries that remain to be solved:
1. Since Beaker in Britain is thought to have come from the Netherlands, why has no DF19 or U106 been found in British Beaker?
2. Since most British Beaker is L21 (DF13, actually), why haven't we found it in Dutch Beaker? (It hasn't been found in continental Beaker anywhere else either, and neither has its immediate ancestor Z290.)
I'm thinking the main problem with regard to L21 in the Netherlands is that it was probably in the uplands, where the acid soils ate ancient skeletons. I don't know why no DF19 or U106 has turned up in British Beaker.
Of course, we also don't yet have any P312 or any of its subclades in CW either, and you know damned well it was present.
I wouldn't be super surprised to find DF19 pop up in north English/Scottish Beaker. It feels like they should be there, even if they got crowded out in the south. Why they aren't is definitely a mystery.
R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149
Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583; John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593; John Wing (U106>Z8>Z1) b1584; John Howland (U106>Z8>Z1) b1593; Elizabeth Tilley (Howland) (H1a1 mtDNA) b1607; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635
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(03-26-2025, 10:40 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: (03-26-2025, 10:18 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: Here are a couple of mysteries that remain to be solved:
1. Since Beaker in Britain is thought to have come from the Netherlands, why has no DF19 or U106 been found in British Beaker?
2. Since most British Beaker is L21 (DF13, actually), why haven't we found it in Dutch Beaker? (It hasn't been found in continental Beaker anywhere else either, and neither has its immediate ancestor Z290.)
I'm thinking the main problem with regard to L21 in the Netherlands is that it was probably in the uplands, where the acid soils ate ancient skeletons. I don't know why no DF19 or U106 has turned up in British Beaker.
Of course, we also don't yet have any P312 or any of its subclades in CW either, and you know damned well it was present.
I wouldn't be super surprised to find DF19 pop up in north English/Scottish Beaker. It feels like they should be there, even if they got crowded out in the south. Why they aren't is definitely a mystery.
I'll trade you one in exchange for an L21 in Dutch Beaker or, better yet, CW.
Man, I wish we could get some ancient Y-DNA from some of those CW mounds in the Dutch uplands!
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I may eventually be proven wrong, but I still think P312>>ZZ11 (DF27 & U152) are not part of this Rhine-Meuse BB group. Think their BB area is further upstream.
U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
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(03-26-2025, 10:52 PM)Mitchell-Atkins Wrote: I may eventually be proven wrong, but I still think P312>>ZZ11 (DF27 & U152) are not part of this Rhine-Meuse BB group. Think their BB area is further upstream.
I agree with you.
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(03-26-2025, 07:29 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: Quote:Oostwoud Family A (4 members) (I39210 is the mother of I4074; I4068, I4073, and I4074 are all 2nd or 3rd degree relatives of each other; I4068 and I4073 are not closely related to I39210)
But I39210 isn't in the supplement as a sample?
You can also see the IBD for I4073 and I4074 and how it relates to I5748 and I13028 (and British Beakers) from the first IBD paper:
Show Content
Spoiler
I4073:
13 STD002 Bohemia, Stadice 4720 2885-2639 calBCE (4177±25 BP, MAMS-45792) Czech_CordedWare M
26 Ardu2 Ardu, Harju 4652 2872-2501 calBCE (4110±40 BP, Poz-10824) Estonia_CordedWare.SG_o2 M
13 Aes25 Aesch 4635 2865-2499 calBCE (4099±32 BP, BE-8681.1.1) Switzerland_LN_oSteppe M
17 RDV001 Bohemia, Radovesice 4592 2850-2497 calBCE (4081±25 BP, MAMS-45791) Czech_CordedWare M
15 I0103 Esperstedt 4472 2617-2461 calBCE (4000±31 BP, MAMS-21488) Germany_CordedWare F
14 GBVPK La Clape, Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue 4336 2461-2299 calBCE (3890±15 BP, UCAIMS-223208) France_LaClape_LN_EMBA_BellBeakerPossible.SG M
51 I5367 Scotland, Coll, Sorisdale 4312 2466-2209 calBCE (3879±32 BP, OxA-14722) Scotland_BellBeaker F
46 I13028 Zuid-Holland, Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog 4250 2500-2100 BCE Netherlands_LNB_BellBeaker M
17 I1381 Moselle, Mondelange, PAC de la Sente 4250 2500-2100 BCE France_BellBeaker M
14 I5521 Augsburg 4250 2800-1800 BCE Germany_Lech_BellBeaker F
16 I2450 England, Oxfordshire, Abington, Spring Road cemetery 4248 2455-2200 calBCE (3838±30 BP) [R_combine: (3850±21 BP); (3841±40 BP, NZA-15865); (3834±45 BP, NZA-15866)] England_BellBeaker F
12 I2418 England, Wiltshire, Amesbury Down 4237 2452-2200 calBCE (3835±25 BP, NZA-32788) England_BellBeaker F
16 I7280 Brandýsek 4200 2500-2000 BCE Czech_CordedWare M
13 I6624 Irlbach LKR 4200 2500-2000 BCE Germany_BellBeaker F
14 KO1004 Bohemia, Kolín II 4166 2291-2140 calBCE (3787±24 BP, MAMS-30783) Czech_BellBeaker M
14 MX288 Southern Germany, Singen 4051 2201-1985 calBCE (3712±29 BP, MAMS-21968) Germany_SouthernGermany_Singen_EBA M
1489 I4074 Noord-Holland, Oostwoud, De Tuithoorn 4030 2281-1899 calBCE (3690±60 BP, GrA-15597) Netherlands_BellBeaker M
**I4073 Noord-Holland, Oostwoud, De Tuithoorn 3992 2197-1897 calBCE (3660±50 BP, GrA-15598) Netherlands_BellBeaker M
35 I4069 Noord-Holland, Oostwoud, De Tuithoorn 3966 2192-1887 calBCE (3640±50 BP, GrA-6477) Netherlands_BellBeaker M
12 MOK27 North Banat District, Kikinda, Mokrin Necropolis 3900 2100-1800 BCE Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros.SG U
15 KO1009 Bohemia, Kolín I 3894 2026-1883 calBCE (3589±24 BP, MAMS-30786) Czech_EBA_Unetice F
19 WEHR_1415adult Wehringen - Hochfeld 3872 2014-1830 calBCE (3573±19 BP, MAMS-18929) Germany_Lech_EBA_mother.WEHR_1415child_possible.contam F
12 MIB040 Bohemia, Mikulovice 3829 1957-1773 calBCE (3548±24 BP, CRL-19417) Czech_EBA_Unetice M
12 kzb007 Republic of Bashkorstan, Near Usmanovo village, Kazburun 1 3672 1873-1623 calBCE (3422±30 BP, Ua-56447) Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG M
24 I26830 Noord-Holland, Wervershoof-Zwaagdijk 3429 1620-1311 calBCE (3210±60 BP, GrA-18886) Netherlands_MBA M
22 I19858 England, Wiltshire, Rowbarrow 3429 1532-1431 calBCE (3222±28 BP, SUERC-41699) England_MBA M
13 esp005 La Rioja, Cueva de los Lagos 3400 1600-1300 BCE Spain_BA.SG M
18 I13781 NW Bohemia, Teplice, Bílina (Rudiay I/Maxim Gorkij) 2977 1117-931 calBCE (2860±25 BP, PSUAMS-10016) Czech_LBA_IA_Knoviz_Hallstatt F
I4074:
25 I2069 Altai Autonomous Republic, Ust-Kanski, Altai Mountains, Kaminnaya Cave 5061 3331-2921 calBCE (4430±40 BP, Poz-83425) Russia_Afanasievo F
25 VLI076 Bohemia, Vliněves 4906 3018-2899 calBCE (4340±25 BP, MAMS-45799) Czech_CordedWare F
23 STD002 Bohemia, Stadice 4720 2885-2639 calBCE (4177±25 BP, MAMS-45792) Czech_CordedWare M
21 Aes25 Aesch 4635 2865-2499 calBCE (4099±32 BP, BE-8681.1.1) Switzerland_LN_oSteppe M
23 TRM003 Bohemia, Trmice 4620 2854-2501 calBCE (4093±24 BP, MAMS-45794) Czech_CordedWare F
26 HAN004 Moscow, Khanevo 4511 2837-2467 calBCE (4036±37 BP, UBA-41619) Russia_Moscow_Fatyanovo_BA.SG M
22 PRU002 Bohemia 4470 2574-2466 calBCE (3995±23 BP, MAMS-30800) Czech_BellBeaker F
84 I5748 Noord-Holland, Oostwoud, De Tuithoorn 4383 2579-2211 calBCE (3945±55 BP, GrN-6650C) Netherlands_BellBeaker M
33 I5367 Scotland, Coll, Sorisdale 4312 2466-2209 calBCE (3879±32 BP, OxA-14722) Scotland_BellBeaker F
23 I2365 Budapest-Békásmegyer 4299 2459-2209 calBCE (3865±22 BP) [R_combine: (3858±32 BP, DeA-6762); (3871±29 BP, DeA-7220)] Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker M
13 I2787 Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő 4254 2456-2200 calBCE (3840±35 BP, Poz-83640) Hungary_EBA_BellBeaker M
49 I4950 England, Wiltshire, Upavon, RFC Central Flying School 4250 2800-1800 BCE England_BellBeaker M
35 I13028 Zuid-Holland, Ottoland-Kromme Elleboog 4250 2500-2100 BCE Netherlands_LNB_BellBeaker M
13 pcw280 Southeastern Poland, Pełczyska 4250 2500-2100 BCE Poland_Southeast_BellBeaker.SG F
36 I2418 England, Wiltshire, Amesbury Down 4237 2452-2200 calBCE (3835±25 BP, NZA-32788) England_BellBeaker F
12 HUGO_168 Augsburg - Hugo-Eckener-Straße 4167 2291-2140 calBCE (3788±23 BP, MAMS-18913) Germany_Lech_BellBeaker_possible.contam F
14 I6778 England, Wiltshire, Wilsford 4150 2500-1900 BCE England_BellBeaker_o F
43 I6774 England, Sussex, Brighton, Ditchling Road 4121 2287-2041 calBCE (3760±30 BP, SUERC-74755) England_BellBeaker_lowEEF M
24 I4895 Prague 5, Jinonice, Butovická Street 4106 2276-2042 calBCE (3750±20 BP, PSUAMS-2852) Czech_BellBeaker M
31 I4887 Prague 8, Kobylisy, Ke Stírce Street 4071 2201-2037 calBCE (3730±20 BP, PSUAMS-2845) Czech_BellBeaker_brother.I4888 M
20 I13027 Zuid-Holland, Molenaarsgraaf 4039 2197-1983 calBCE (3700±25 BP, PSUAMS-7847) Netherlands_LNB_EBA_BellBeaker F
**I4074 Noord-Holland, Oostwoud, De Tuithoorn 4030 2281-1899 calBCE (3690±60 BP, GrA-15597) Netherlands_BellBeaker M
15 VLI061 Bohemia, Vliněves 4000 2200-1900 BCE Czech_EBA_Unetice F
14 ROU006 Bohemia, Roudnice nad Labem 4000 2200-1900 BCE Czech_EBA_Unetice F
1489 I4073 Noord-Holland, Oostwoud, De Tuithoorn 3992 2197-1897 calBCE (3660±50 BP, GrA-15598) Netherlands_BellBeaker M
13 rath1 Rathlin Island, County Antrim 3897 2031-1830 calBCE (3591±29 BP, UBA-8707) Ireland_EBA.SG M
25 N17 Gustorzyn 3850 2020-1774 calBCE (3560±30 BP, Poz-77332) Poland_EBA.SG M
13 ALM016 Murcia, Pliego, La Almoloya 3803 1945-1769 calBCE (3534±24 BP, MAMS-29730) Spain_Almoloya_Argar_Early M
21 MIB009 Bohemia, Mikulovice 3773 1918-1745 calBCE (3507±26 BP, MAMS-19121) Czech_EBA_Unetice F
23 I4070 Noord-Holland, Oostwoud, De Tuithoorn 3703 1880-1627 calBCE (3440±40 BP, GrA-17225) Netherlands_EBA M
13 kzb007 Republic of Bashkorstan, Near Usmanovo village, Kazburun 1 3672 1873-1623 calBCE (3422±30 BP, Ua-56447) Russia_Srubnaya_Alakul.SG M
14 TU907(SX20) Wartau 3576 1733-1542 calBCE (3351±20 BP, BE-8015.1.1) Switzerland_EBA_2 M
13 I12208 Castilla y León, Valladolid, San Román de Hornija, La Requejada 3250 1400-1200 BCE Spain_MBA F
13 I12209 Castilla y León, Valladolid, San Román de Hornija, La Requejada 3250 1400-1200 BCE Spain_MBA M
17 I13791 NW Bohemia, Teplice, Bílina (Rudiay I/Maxim Gorkij) 2975 1200-850 BCE Czech_LBA_IA_Knoviz_Hallstatt F
14 I14101 England, East Riding of Yorkshire, Pocklington (Burnby Lane) 2175 400-50 BCE England_EastYorkshire_MIA_LIA F
14 VK386 Nor South, Oppland 1000 800-1100 CE Norway_Viking.SG M
Aha! She's not in the spreadsheet, but she is in the pdf supplement:
Quote:2.9 Oostwoud-Tuithoorn (Noord-Holland, the Netherlands) Analyzed samples:
I39211 (skeleton 239): 1981-1692 cal BCE (3520±50 BP, GrA-15601)
I39210 (Skeleton S233-A16-005_M125) (contaminated)
Site information and excavation history: In 1956 and 1957, Prof. van Giffen excavated one Late Neolithic and one Early Bronze Age burial mound at Oostwoud-Tuithoorn (van Giffen 1961, 1962). Since van Giffen had not been able to finish the excavations, additional research was conducted in 1963 and 1966 by de Weerd (de Weerd 1963, 1967). Finally in 1977 and 1978, when the site was being threatened by deepploughing, a large-scale excavation was conducted under supervision of van der Waals and Lanting (Lanting 1979, 2008). During these excavations a total of 15 well preserved skeletons were recovered, dating to three episodes of activity between c. 2340–1780 cal BCE. A detailed account of all excavations was published by Fokkens et al. (Fokkens et al. 2017), and aDNA samples of other skeletons were published earlier by Olalde et al. (Olalde et al. 2018) and Patterson et al. 2021.
Summary of the sampled materials: For the present study an additional two individuals from the site were sampled: skeleton S233 and S239. Skeleton 233 was buried in a pit which was disturbed in the Middle Ages, leaving less than 25 % of the skeleton (the skull and part of the pelvis: Veselka 2016). Its orientation was not properly recorded in the field drawings, but a sketch shows a crouched position on the right side with the head pointing south, facing east (Lanting and van der Plicht 2002, 86). That position is in line with that of other female skeletons at Oostwoud, though these were all facing north. Osteoarchaeological analysis considered the individual to be a man of 36-49 years old (Veselka 2016), though earlier analysis had suggested this to be possibly female (Runia 1987). Sample I39210 of skeleton 233 was suspected of contamination and not used in the analysis (Supplementary table 2), but indicated the molecular sex as female.
Skeleton 239 yielded sample I39211. This skeleton was of a relatively tall male individual (181.4 ± 3.27 cm) who was buried in extreme flexed position, probably because he was wrapped in a mat of some kind (Fokkens et al. 2017, 141).
Dating: Skeleton 233 (I39210) was not direct dated, but she probably should be placed in the same episode of burial as S242 (I4074), S236 (I4073) and S228 who were related in the second or third degree (Supplementary table 7); Fokkens et al. 2017). These were buried between 2140 and 2070 BCE. Skeleton 239 (I39211) was dated to the Early Bronze Age (GrA-15601: 3520 +/1 60 BP; 1981-1662 calBCE), though still buried in a Late Neolithic tradition in terms of position and orientation. Therefore, we suggest he dates to Episode 4, between 1900 and 1800 BCE. Source of samples: Provinciaal depot voor archeologie van Noord-Holland; Martin Veen, Rob van Eerden. Samples collected by Eveline Altena. Author of entry: Harry Fokkens
R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>FT354149
Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583; John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593; John Wing (U106>Z8>Z1) b1584; John Howland (U106>Z8>Z1) b1593; Elizabeth Tilley (Howland) (H1a1 mtDNA) b1607; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635
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(03-26-2025, 10:28 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: (03-26-2025, 10:22 PM)NewEnglander Wrote: (03-25-2025, 06:11 PM)Strider99 Wrote: I wonder if these Neolithic samples will have something like Anatolian-derived C-V3163, in which case their conclusion about HG-mediated paternal lines would of course be wrong. Fortunately, there's still time for them to correct that if that's the case, since it's only a pre-print.
(03-26-2025, 06:18 PM)Dewsloth Wrote: I'm all for more discoveries and testing!
One possible complication from modern L21 in the Netherlands may be the Puritan era. For instance, my "British" I2 9th great grandfather, John Cooke (Mayflower passenger with his dad) was born in Leiden in 1606.
Do you know how many permanently settled in the Netherlands? I actually think a lot of the more of the migration was the other way around: Flemings and Dutch to England. As a Puritan descendant myself I’ve become quite interested with the migration of Fleming/Dutch to areas like East Anglia, where many Puritans migrated from.
I'm also a Puritan descendant myself, mainly through a paternal second great-grandmother, Olive Augusta Washburn. A bunch of my relatives were members of the Mayflower Society.
I believe you're right. Besides that, weren't most of the Puritans from East Anglia and thereabouts? That area, as I recall, has a relatively low frequency of L21, at least when compared with most places in Britain. It's high in I-M253 and R-U106. My Washburn line, for example, belongs to a clade downstream of I-M253.
I also doubt many, if any, of the Puritans who went to the Netherlands settled out in the eastern upland boonies, where L21 has its highest modern Dutch frequency.
Yes, East Anglia was the most important center of Puritan migration, and a plurality of settlers came from East Anglia and adjacent regions (the next most numerically significant region was actually the West Country). R-L21 does also seem to be at its lowest (by British standards) in East Anglia. I think the Pilgrims who settled in Leiden however were centered on Nottinghamshire and northern Lincolnshire.
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