Yeah, but it's better not to conflate different things, that was the point of my question. You can't use too broad a brush when painting the picture of BA Europe, there were very different processes going on.
Literally every single part of Europe received a large genetic turnover if we see any people in the region speaking IE in historic times. Trying to paint a 30-50% turnover seen in Iberia, Italy and Greece as being completely different in nature than the 60% or so turnover seen in the northern European plain makes no sense to me.
(02-09-2025, 01:25 PM)Urnfielder Wrote: Why is everyone surprised that R1a is missing in ancient iran? Their modern R1a is all Z93 and was therefore turkic, it looks like turkic people invaded and mixed heavily with iranians from the 11th century, probably mostly paternally -
"Based on descendant testing, it appears most likely that the sultans of the Ottoman dynasty belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z93. This has not been officially confirmed yet. All sultans of the Ottoman Empire (1299-1922) descend in patrilineal line from Osman I, making it one of the longest reigning Y-chromosomal lineage in history."
It also appears that ancient dna so far has provided no support for Underhill's theory on the birth of R1a-M420 in Iran:
"we conclude that the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran" https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg201450
We are not seeing any support for Rootsi's (and Behar's) origin of M582 either:
"we can assess whether or not the origin of haplogroup R1a-M582 is in present-day Iran and eastern Anatolia, or rather the broader region of the Near East." https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3928
"The proposed Middle Eastern origin of the Ashkenazi Levite lineage based on what was previously a relatively limited number of reported samples20, can now be considered firmly validated ... the phylogeny demonstrates a rich diversity of R1a samples distributed throughout the Middle East, Anatolia, Caucasus and the Indian sub-continent, whereas East European branches represent an early split within R1a." https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-14761-7
(02-09-2025, 01:25 PM)Urnfielder Wrote: Why is everyone surprised that R1a is missing in ancient iran? Their modern R1a is all Z93 and was therefore turkic, it looks like turkic people invaded and mixed heavily with iranians from the 11th century, probably mostly paternally -
"Based on descendant testing, it appears most likely that the sultans of the Ottoman dynasty belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z93. This has not been officially confirmed yet. All sultans of the Ottoman Empire (1299-1922) descend in patrilineal line from Osman I, making it one of the longest reigning Y-chromosomal lineage in history."
And where do you think the Turks got it? They got it from the Z93 East Iranics and Scythians. People anticipate Z93 in Iran because it is observed in pretty much every Indo-Iranic group and in ancient East Iranic peoples
(02-09-2025, 01:25 PM)Urnfielder Wrote: Why is everyone surprised that R1a is missing in ancient iran? Their modern R1a is all Z93 and was therefore turkic, it looks like turkic people invaded and mixed heavily with iranians from the 11th century, probably mostly paternally -
"Based on descendant testing, it appears most likely that the sultans of the Ottoman dynasty belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z93. This has not been officially confirmed yet. All sultans of the Ottoman Empire (1299-1922) descend in patrilineal line from Osman I, making it one of the longest reigning Y-chromosomal lineage in history."
And where do you think the Turks got it? They got it from the Z93 East Iranics and Scythians. People anticipate Z93 in Iran because it is observed in pretty much every Indo-Iranic group and in ancient East Iranic peoples
(02-10-2025, 04:22 PM)RCO Wrote: I agree with Heggarty, if you don't, let's agree to disagree !
We need more ancient samples from the Southwestern Caspian Sea, Northern Iran and Northern Mesopotamia from the Mesolithic to Bronze Age, now we have the new Parthian ancient samples, extremely important to connect Iran_Gilan with the Caucasus and the Volga, the CLV-Iran continuum/cline, the PIE origin.
Hello, what can you say about this thread? Recently one Tsakhur from Dagestan passed the big test. And he got this thread. There are a lot of Portuguese in it. But it is connected with the Mesheko culture.
(02-10-2025, 04:22 PM)RCO Wrote: I agree with Heggarty, if you don't, let's agree to disagree !
We need more ancient samples from the Southwestern Caspian Sea, Northern Iran and Northern Mesopotamia from the Mesolithic to Bronze Age, now we have the new Parthian ancient samples, extremely important to connect Iran_Gilan with the Caucasus and the Volga, the CLV-Iran continuum/cline, the PIE origin.
Hello, what can you say about this thread? Recently one Tsakhur from Dagestan passed the big test. And he got this thread. There are a lot of Portuguese in it. But it is connected with the Mesheko culture.
There are confirmed and documented connections between the Caucasus and Iberian Peninsula (Portugal and Spain) as we can observe in relatively close matches between Iberians (Portuguese/Spaniards) and Ossetians/Caucasians/Georgians like here - J-Y58967:
We always need the TMRCA matches between the two distant regions and I think the Alan movement/migration/invasion in the Fall of the Roman Empire was considerable and had a diversity of Caucasian and Caspian clades/haplogroups en route to Atlantic Portugal/Spain.
(02-10-2025, 04:22 PM)RCO Wrote: I agree with Heggarty, if you don't, let's agree to disagree !
We need more ancient samples from the Southwestern Caspian Sea, Northern Iran and Northern Mesopotamia from the Mesolithic to Bronze Age, now we have the new Parthian ancient samples, extremely important to connect Iran_Gilan with the Caucasus and the Volga, the CLV-Iran continuum/cline, the PIE origin.
Hello, what can you say about this thread? Recently one Tsakhur from Dagestan passed the big test. And he got this thread. There are a lot of Portuguese in it. But it is connected with the Mesheko culture.
There are confirmed and documented connections between the Caucasus and Iberian Peninsula (Portugal and Spain) as we can observe in relatively close matches between Iberians (Portuguese/Spaniards) and Ossetians/Caucasians/Georgians like here - J-Y58967:
We always need the TMRCA matches between the two distant regions and I think the Alan movement/migration/invasion in the Fall of the Roman Empire was considerable and had a diversity of Caucasian and Caspian clades/haplogroups en route to Atlantic Portugal/Spain.
Hi RCO. I have a couple of interesting G1 matches from Brazil. Albeit distant matches but still related paternally within a handful of millennia. I am YF014422.
