Ancient DNA indicates 3,000 years of genetic continuity in the Northern Iranian Plate

[Granary]

Yes, we have several articles about the Hungarian Conquistadores, Hungarians commoners were a conquered people and changed tha language as we can observe in several Asiatic haplogroups/components there.

Correct and we can observe Indo-European R1a in Iranians today at far higher rates than Uralic or Turkic lineages in Hungarian. So how does this article prove what you think it proves?

[RCO]

We can observe R1a in Arabs, Jews, Assyrians, Turks, Dravidians, Mongols, etc, just like we can observe different haplogroups in any ethnicity.

In the case of Hungary:
Genetic structure of the early Hungarian conquerors inferred from mtDNA haplotypes and Y-chromosome haplogroups in a small cemetery
Endre Neparáczki
Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin
Endre Neparáczki

[billh]

Modern Mazandaranis have among the lowest Steppe ancestry in Iran

Who made this map and based on which samples? That's a lot of regional Iranian samples.

Not sure, but Davidski's dataset seems to map onto it pretty well and also Moriopolous dataset

Code:

Target,Distance,CHN_Tarim_EMBA1,Dinka,GEO_CHG,Han,IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,Levant_Natufian_EpiP,MAR_Taforalt,Onge,TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N,Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,Yoruba
Iranian_(Sistani_Profile),0.03941222,3.8,0.0,0.0,0.0,45.0,7.0,0.4,13.2,11.8,18.8,0.0
Iranian_(Eastern_Plateau_Profile),0.02126555,1.8,0.0,3.0,0.0,43.2,6.6,0.0,5.6,22.2,17.6,0.0
Iranian_(SSA-Mixed_Profile),0.02279949,0.0,0.0,7.8,3.0,31.0,8.0,0.0,0.0,28.0,14.6,7.6
Iranian_(Generic_Plateau_Profile),0.02479837,3.0,0.0,8.4,1.6,36.4,8.0,0.0,0.0,29.4,13.2,0.0
Iranian_(Bandari_Profile),0.02557814,2.0,1.2,0.0,0.0,48.6,7.2,0.0,6.6,18.6,12.8,3.0
Iranian_(Western_Plateau_Profile),0.02619138,0.2,0.0,13.4,2.8,29.4,10.2,0.0,0.0,32.2,11.8,0.0
Iranian_(Azeri_Profile),0.02377265,2.2,0.0,13.8,4.8,28.6,7.0,0.0,0.0,33.4,10.2,0.0
Iranian_(Mazandarani_Profile),0.02892683,1.2,0.0,12.6,0.8,43.2,4.0,0.0,0.0,28.2,10.0,0.0
Iranian_(Intermediate_SSA-Mixed_Profile),0.03361710,2.4,7.2,0.0,0.0,33.8,2.6,0.0,7.4,16.6,9.0,21.0
Average,0.02737353,1.8,0.9,6.6,1.4,37.7,6.7,0.0,3.6,24.5,13.1,3.5

Target,Distance,CHN_Tarim_EMBA1,Dinka,GEO_CHG,Han,IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,Levant_Natufian_EpiP,MAR_Taforalt,Onge,TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N,Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Iranian_Bandari,0.02531465,1.2,0.8,0.0,0.0,50.2,4.2,2.0,7.0,19.6,15.0
Iranian_Zoroastrian,0.02479209,2.8,0.0,8.2,0.0,36.6,9.2,0.0,0.0,28.6,14.6
Iranian_Persian_Shiraz,0.02243139,3.2,0.0,8.8,2.4,37.4,13.0,0.0,0.0,24.4,10.8
Iranian_Fars,0.02461693,4.0,0.0,9.8,1.8,36.0,9.4,0.0,0.0,28.4,10.6
Iranian_Mazandarani,0.03024854,2.8,0.0,12.4,0.2,43.4,4.8,0.0,0.0,27.6,8.8
Iranian_Lor,0.02462317,3.6,0.0,11.2,0.4,37.2,10.6,0.0,0.0,31.0,6.0
Average,0.02533779,2.9,0.1,8.4,0.8,40.1,8.5,0.3,1.2,26.6,11.0

[Granary]

Modern Mazandaranis have among the lowest Steppe ancestry in Iran

Who made this map and based on which samples? That's a lot of regional Iranian samples.

Not sure, but Davidski's dataset seems to map onto it pretty well and also Moriopolous dataset

Code:

Target,Distance,CHN_Tarim_EMBA1,Dinka,GEO_CHG,Han,IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,Levant_Natufian_EpiP,MAR_Taforalt,Onge,TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N,Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,Yoruba
Iranian_(Sistani_Profile),0.03941222,3.8,0.0,0.0,0.0,45.0,7.0,0.4,13.2,11.8,18.8,0.0
Iranian_(Eastern_Plateau_Profile),0.02126555,1.8,0.0,3.0,0.0,43.2,6.6,0.0,5.6,22.2,17.6,0.0
Iranian_(SSA-Mixed_Profile),0.02279949,0.0,0.0,7.8,3.0,31.0,8.0,0.0,0.0,28.0,14.6,7.6
Iranian_(Generic_Plateau_Profile),0.02479837,3.0,0.0,8.4,1.6,36.4,8.0,0.0,0.0,29.4,13.2,0.0
Iranian_(Bandari_Profile),0.02557814,2.0,1.2,0.0,0.0,48.6,7.2,0.0,6.6,18.6,12.8,3.0
Iranian_(Western_Plateau_Profile),0.02619138,0.2,0.0,13.4,2.8,29.4,10.2,0.0,0.0,32.2,11.8,0.0
Iranian_(Azeri_Profile),0.02377265,2.2,0.0,13.8,4.8,28.6,7.0,0.0,0.0,33.4,10.2,0.0
Iranian_(Mazandarani_Profile),0.02892683,1.2,0.0,12.6,0.8,43.2,4.0,0.0,0.0,28.2,10.0,0.0
Iranian_(Intermediate_SSA-Mixed_Profile),0.03361710,2.4,7.2,0.0,0.0,33.8,2.6,0.0,7.4,16.6,9.0,21.0
Average,0.02737353,1.8,0.9,6.6,1.4,37.7,6.7,0.0,3.6,24.5,13.1,3.5

Target,Distance,CHN_Tarim_EMBA1,Dinka,GEO_CHG,Han,IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,Levant_Natufian_EpiP,MAR_Taforalt,Onge,TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N,Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
Iranian_Bandari,0.02531465,1.2,0.8,0.0,0.0,50.2,4.2,2.0,7.0,19.6,15.0
Iranian_Zoroastrian,0.02479209,2.8,0.0,8.2,0.0,36.6,9.2,0.0,0.0,28.6,14.6
Iranian_Persian_Shiraz,0.02243139,3.2,0.0,8.8,2.4,37.4,13.0,0.0,0.0,24.4,10.8
Iranian_Fars,0.02461693,4.0,0.0,9.8,1.8,36.0,9.4,0.0,0.0,28.4,10.6
Iranian_Mazandarani,0.03024854,2.8,0.0,12.4,0.2,43.4,4.8,0.0,0.0,27.6,8.8
Iranian_Lor,0.02462317,3.6,0.0,11.2,0.4,37.2,10.6,0.0,0.0,31.0,6.0
Average,0.02533779,2.9,0.1,8.4,0.8,40.1,8.5,0.3,1.2,26.6,11.0

You could add Balochi, Kurds, Azeri and Tajiks to complete the picture a bit, given the lack of Eastern Iranians

[billh]

The most important breakthrough in genetic genealogy in the last ten years. O mais importante avanço na genealogia genética nos últimos dez anos: "Ancient DNA indicates 3,000 years of genetic continuity in the Northern Iranian Plateau, from the Copper Age to the Sassanid Empire"+
Y-chr and mitochondrial haplogroups that evolved around the ancient Persian Plateau, and which are still rare in ancient genome databases. We compared these with the available ancient and modern data and showed the long-term continuity in the uniparental ancestries in the region+
Liarsangbon, Amlash, Gilan Iran_North. Three Parthian samples:
IRN23 and IRN25, a pair of genetically identical/twin individuals 200BCE to 100AD - J1-FGC6141 J1-FGC6069
IRN31 also from Liarsangbon 50BCE to 65 AD - J1-FGC61423 +
"the majority of the ancient Iranian gene pool remained stable over the centuries, with minor changes observed in the contemporary Iranian population. 
Bronze Age Steppe ancestry remained relatively minor during the historical period in northern Iran". +
The genetic continuum between Central Asia, BMAC and Northern Iran. "Missing Links in Paternal Haplogroup J1-M267. Filling in the J1-M267 Phylogenetic Gap. Two Mesolithic Clades of Human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267: J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599"- Ricardo + https://zenodo.org/records/5528265
"The residents of Liār-Sang Bon and, consequently, the Deylaman  area in the historical period, especially  the Parthians, had close relations with  cultures outside the region, including  the northern regions of the Caspian Sea (Such as the Sarmatian graves around the Volga-Don+
I discovered the lineage - J1-FGC6064  - More than 200 SNPs (2014) https://academia.edu/5889836/Western_Eur...netic_tree
"Nós Somos Alanos"  (2015)  https://www.academia.edu/13589202/_Nós_s...te_Ibérico +
Warning: The Iranian language was spoken long before Fatyanovo, Sintashta or Andronovo, a scientific mistake related to R1a in Northern/Western Iran. R1a was originally a EHG, Uralic, Hunnic, Turkic, Mongolic, even Indic or Semitic small fragmented clades in NW Iran -Be careful +
Escrevi em inglês para ver se alguns cientistas e interessados percebam que um brasileiro e iranianos conseguem mostrar a proposta científica sobre a origem das línguas indo-europeias e quem também fazia parte dos J1 Proto-Indo-Europeus, uma comunidade "guerreira e democrática" +

More here:
https://x.com/Ricardo_Cd_Oliv/status/188...3763362110

"The majority of the ancient Iranian gene pool" = 7 samples from 3 sites in region of Iran with several hard geographic barriers that today has possibly the lowest Steppe ancestry of all Iranic peoples

"3000 years of genetic continuity" = Samples from pre-Andronovo groups, and samples from the Hellenistic era and onwards. Not even a single sample in this study actually has an average calculated date before Alexander's invasion, and the upper bounds of their dates is still far after the establishment of the Achaemenid Empire. 

"genetic continuity" is also iffy right now, the study had a pretty shoddy model and the qpadm runs had a pretty limited pool of left pops. Certainly the Sintashta ancestry was small but I don't know if it's nonexistent

[Granary]

The most important breakthrough in genetic genealogy in the last ten years. O mais importante avanço na genealogia genética nos últimos dez anos: "Ancient DNA indicates 3,000 years of genetic continuity in the Northern Iranian Plateau, from the Copper Age to the Sassanid Empire"+
Y-chr and mitochondrial haplogroups that evolved around the ancient Persian Plateau, and which are still rare in ancient genome databases. We compared these with the available ancient and modern data and showed the long-term continuity in the uniparental ancestries in the region+
Liarsangbon, Amlash, Gilan Iran_North. Three Parthian samples:
IRN23 and IRN25, a pair of genetically identical/twin individuals 200BCE to 100AD - J1-FGC6141 J1-FGC6069
IRN31 also from Liarsangbon 50BCE to 65 AD - J1-FGC61423 +
"the majority of the ancient Iranian gene pool remained stable over the centuries, with minor changes observed in the contemporary Iranian population. 
Bronze Age Steppe ancestry remained relatively minor during the historical period in northern Iran". +
The genetic continuum between Central Asia, BMAC and Northern Iran. "Missing Links in Paternal Haplogroup J1-M267. Filling in the J1-M267 Phylogenetic Gap. Two Mesolithic Clades of Human Y chromosome haplogroup J1-M267: J1-FGC6064 and J1-ZS6599"- Ricardo + https://zenodo.org/records/5528265
"The residents of Liār-Sang Bon and, consequently, the Deylaman  area in the historical period, especially  the Parthians, had close relations with  cultures outside the region, including  the northern regions of the Caspian Sea (Such as the Sarmatian graves around the Volga-Don+
I discovered the lineage - J1-FGC6064  - More than 200 SNPs (2014) https://academia.edu/5889836/Western_Eur...netic_tree
"Nós Somos Alanos"  (2015)  https://www.academia.edu/13589202/_Nós_s...te_Ibérico +
Warning: The Iranian language was spoken long before Fatyanovo, Sintashta or Andronovo, a scientific mistake related to R1a in Northern/Western Iran. R1a was originally a EHG, Uralic, Hunnic, Turkic, Mongolic, even Indic or Semitic small fragmented clades in NW Iran -Be careful +
Escrevi em inglês para ver se alguns cientistas e interessados percebam que um brasileiro e iranianos conseguem mostrar a proposta científica sobre a origem das línguas indo-europeias e quem também fazia parte dos J1 Proto-Indo-Europeus, uma comunidade "guerreira e democrática" +

More here:
https://x.com/Ricardo_Cd_Oliv/status/188...3763362110

"The majority of the ancient Iranian gene pool" = 7 samples from 3 sites in region of Iran with several hard geographic barriers that today has possibly the lowest Steppe ancestry of all Iranic peoples

"3000 years of genetic continuity" = Samples from pre-Andronovo groups, and samples from the Hellenistic era and onwards. Not even a single sample in this study actually has an average calculated date before Alexander's invasion, and the upper bounds of their dates is still far after the establishment of the Achaemenid Empire. 

"genetic continuity" is also iffy right now, the study had a pretty shoddy model and the qpadm runs had a pretty limited pool of left pops. Certainly the Sintashta ancestry was small but I don't know if it's nonexistent

I also find silly that anyone found this groundbreaking, let alone the fact we had iron age samples that already suggested this but even just knowing Late Copper Age Iran and compared it to today gave you enough to think that there was broad >50% if not >75% continuity in most of Iran

[RCO]

Beating the retreat from the Steppe hypothesis
Paul HeggartyPaul Heggarty
https://www.academia.edu/127485847/Beati...hypothesis

The new paper thus makes various statements as if of fact, citing their own past papers, but which are entirely at
variance with other perspectives, not least from archaeology. It opens with the claim that “people of the Yamnaya
archaeological complex and their descendants … transformed … South Asia” (among other places, but again
incongruously omitting Iran), for which the Steppe hypothesis has long imagined the ‘descendant’ culture responsible as
Andronovo. But there is “absolutely NO archaeological evidence for any variant of the Andronovo culture either reaching
or influencing the cultures of Iran or northern India in the second millennium. Not a single artifact of identifiable
Andronovo type has been recovered from the Iranian Plateau, northern India, or Pakistan” (Lamberg-Karlovsky
2005: 155). There was no such “transformation” of South Asia by Yamnaya or their descendants.
In search of another candidate, Narasimhan et al. (2019) sought out samples from the Oxus (or ‘BMAC’) civilisation, but
again effectively drew a blank: no significant Steppe ancestry, but largely Iranian continuity instead. What the main
BMAC culture site at Gonur Depe does host, however, already by 4250 BP, is a burial of a horse and wagon with bronze
wheel rims, and perhaps even soma (or haoma) preparation — supposedly good markers of early Indo-Iranic, for
example, but genetically not from the Steppe. Indeed while their ultimate origins would lie in the Caucasus/Zagros
homeland, there is no strong case for excluding that the long evolution into the distinctly Iranic branch proceeded in or
near what is now Iran, and the distinctly Indic branch on the Indus, spreading then also along the Ganges.
Other than citing their own earlier papers, on other branches of Indo-European this paper leaves rather too much unsaid.
They recognise the major ancestry component in the homeland region of “Neolithic people from [the] Zagros”, and in
Figure 1b this component is hiding in plain sight: right alongside their CLV cline, next to its source end, and labelled
‘Iran’. Far more than any minor Steppe ancestry, too little too late, it is this ancestry component, from the Indo-
European family’s Caucasus/Zagros homeland, that remains predominant in speakers of Iranic and Indic to this day
(see Haak et al. 2015: Fig. S6). Narasimhan et al. (2019) seek to rule out that it simply spread eastwards bearing Indo-
Iranic, but Maier et al. (2023) concede that they cannot; see also Broushaki et al. (2016).

[Norfern-Ostrobothnian]

I don't think the Zagros samples from the Bronze Age are relevant to Indo-Iranians since we have literary evidence of Elamite from the area.

I think the Late Bronze Age Gohar Tepe samples will be far more relevant on that issue, namely IRN73 and IRN80, as they're far closer to the steppe and could have already received an influx of ancestry from Central Asia. But sadly these samples don't seem to have sufficient coverage. All we got out of IRN80 was the mtDNA haplogroup but apparently there was not enough for autosomal sequencing.

[Aramu]

This young J1 branch in Armenians can be of Arsacid origin it seems.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y30278/

[Lugal-Zagesi]

This young J1 branch in Armenians can be of Arsacid origin it seems. 

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y30278/

I can agree, especially since the parallel branch seems to have also deeper Iranian origins, it‘s unrelated to the Armenian founder effect lineage over 5000 BCE.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y234094*/

[RCO]

Very interesting the J1-Y30278 clade.

We have some very ancient and deep Armenian branches in our J1-FGC6064 clade like J1<FGC6064<Y177646 formed 13000 ybp, TMRCA 13000 ybp around Armenia !
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y177646/

[HurrianFam]

The Northwestern Iranian IA sample set is dominated by Western Eurasian haplogroups, however the IA also marks the introduction of Eastern Asian haplogroup D to the Iranian Plateau (Sagzabad site in the northern Qazvin province)

I went and checked out the other paper by this research group that's referenced for these samples, Introducing the human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup from Sagzabad, Qazvin, Iran (Saadatmand et al 2024), and did a quick translation of some of the relevant text and figures. It seems to me that if we had autosomal DNA for these individuals, we'd have Andronovo ancestry in the Qazvin Plain south of the Alborz, notably at one of the sites with early C14 dated and DNA sampled DOM2 horse remains.
   
   

[Jaska]

"We know" - not, that's your subjective opinion without any attested ancient DNA before the arrival of the new data from core Iranian ancient DNA from core regions like Gilan and the Southern Caspian Sea, as I always wrote here and in other fora.

You failed to understand my point: genetic continuity can never prove linguistic continuity.
Please, feel free to explain how it could, in theory.


Here is my comment about the mistakes of Paul Heggarty's latest opinions:
https://genarchivist.net/showthread.php?...1#pid45951

[strawberry]

Ancient DNA indicates 3,000 years of genetic continuity in the Northern Iranian Plateau, from the Copper Age to the Sassanid Empire

Ancient DNA indicates 3,000 years of genetic continuity in the 1 Northern Iranian Plateau, from the Copper Age to the Sassanid 2 Empire 3  4 Motahareh Ala Amjadi1,2, Yusuf Can Özdemir1,2, Maryam Ramezani3, Kristóf Jakab2, 5 Melinda Megyes2, Arezoo Bibak4, Zeinab Salehi3, Zahra Hayatmehar5, Mohammad 6 Hossein Taheri6, Hossein Moradi7, Peyman Zargari8, Ata Hasanpour9, Vali Jahani10, 7 Abdol Motalleb Sharifi11, Balázs Egyed12, Balázs Gusztáv Mende2, Mahmood 8 Tavallaie13, Anna Szécsényi-Nagy

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...l.pdf+html

Strange source populations in the admixture analysis. They included WSHG and Botai but not Yamnaya or Sintashta.

[Urnfielder]

Why is everyone surprised that R1a is missing in ancient iran? Their modern R1a is all Z93 and was therefore turkic, it looks like turkic people invaded and mixed heavily with iranians from the 11th century, probably mostly paternally -

"Based on descendant testing, it appears most likely that the sultans of the Ottoman dynasty belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z93. This has not been officially confirmed yet. All sultans of the Ottoman Empire (1299-1922) descend in patrilineal line from Osman I, making it one of the longest reigning Y-chromosomal lineage in history."