new paper on iron age Britons
#1
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08409-6?
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#2
leaving asher the matralocality thing, it is interesting in showing that the iron age Celtic speakers of Britain noted by the Romans ranged from virtual continuity of early bronze age populations in places like Scotland and northern England to a 50-50 mix of early bronze age and new migrants south of the Thames/south coast and in between those areas a 75% bronze age/25% iron age migrant mix. Ireland isn’t covered but from limited past work on the few unburnt iron age burials there, it’s clear it’d be very high early bronze age like Scotland.

It’s clear that the most genetically connected part of the British Iskes to the continent was the south coast and that was true from the middle bronze age to the late iron age. It probably had the key role in keeping the language dialects of Britain closely aligned to the continent through the whole 1600BC-0 era and its influence likely spread throughout the isles by less genetically driven means. As the paper suggests, this strong link between southern England and the continent was so sustained over so long a period that Celtic probably entered the area several times ranging from early archaic to late iron age Gaulish-like ones.
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#3
U152 from this study

WBK13: U152>L2>Z49>Z142>>>>>>>Y24530
WBK39: U152>Z56>Z42
WBK33: U152>Z56>Z42

There were also 3 DF27 samples

All from Winterborne Kingston, Dorset.
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U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Fennoscandian 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#4
(01-17-2025, 01:56 AM)alanarchae2 Wrote: It probably had the key role in keeping the language dialects of Britain closely aligned to the continent through the whole 1600BC-0 era

I would word it that, continental dialects would have replaced local ones one or a few times, rather.

Sorry to be pedantic but I'm very allergic to "Celtic from the west"-type theories that presume that large areas can keep a cohesive dialect through trade and "contact" for millennia before actually splitting.
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#5
Sample WBK23 from this paper is R-DF27 R1b1a1b1a1a2a2a R-L617 and sample I19857 from Patterson et al. 2021, dated to about 1475 BCE was R-L617 as well. This sample was found in Rowbarrow, Wiltshire. It is only a 40 minute drive between the two locations, going off a map. So one could consider this some sort of continuity.
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#6
(01-17-2025, 07:35 AM)Granary Wrote:
(01-17-2025, 01:56 AM)alanarchae2 Wrote: It probably had the key role in keeping the language dialects of Britain closely aligned to the continent through the whole 1600BC-0 era

I would word it that, continental dialects would have replaced local ones one or a few times, rather.

Sorry to be pedantic but I'm very allergic to "Celtic from the west"-type theories that presume that large areas can keep a cohesive dialect through trade and "contact" for millennia before actually splitting.

Absolutely agreed. I also wonder how sensitive the methods are in detecting minor admixture transmitted between such closely related, all Bell Beaker derived popuilations. Assuming we deal with kind of a domino effect scenario, in which the admixture decreases from one tribe to the next, while "migrating North and West", the admixture levels would decrease in a fairly regular manner, but would only at the very fringe being actually zero if there at all.
The rather gradual decrease of detectable continental admixture might support this.

What makes me really wonder however is, how widespread this matrilinear pattern was in Celtic Europe. Lilke was it restricted to the Isles only or was it more widespread? Or was it not even covering all of Britain, despite the first preliminary results?
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#7
I think it could actually just be a cultural phenomenon that has lessened or become forgotten over time. My wife is from China and in China a daughter almost always leaves her families house to go live with her husband's family, particularly if he is the oldest or only son. Which is why China still practices the bride price. The groom's family needs to pay the brides family for the loss of their daughter. This cultural practice has been causing some issues in China lately, because the asking bride price has risen so much that many poor families can't afford to pay it. Leading to fewer marriages. This might have been a similar situation to what we see in this paper, except maybe young men were the commodity due to fighting/protection skills or other reasons. I think Riverman brings up a good point also as to whether this was practiced all over Celtic Europe or was regulated to a few minor instances.
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#8
Per language intelligibility discussion; just some anecdotal examples

Hawaiian and Marquesan Polynesian languages split around 1100 AD yet they are still mutually intelligible to a degree
https://www.quora.com/To-what-extent-are...telligible.

Also saw where a man learned old English and was able to have a basic conversation with people speaking Frisian.

In the case of insular and continental celts the distances would be much shorter and the trade more common. We know for example that the Atrebates and Belgae were on both sides of the English Channel.
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U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Fennoscandian 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#9
(01-17-2025, 05:14 PM)Mitchell-Atkins Wrote: Per language intelligibility discussion;  just some anecdotal examples

Hawaiian and Marquesan Polynesian languages split around 1100 AD yet they are still mutually intelligible to a degree
https://www.quora.com/To-what-extent-are...telligible.

Also saw where a man learned old English and was able to have a basic conversation with people speaking Frisian.

In the case of insular and continental celts the distances would be much shorter and the trade more common.  We know for example that the Atrebates and Belgae were on both sides of the English Channel.

I would also point out Latin.  Spoken between 1200 and 700 BCE, with an inscription from 700 BCE.  That would make it in use orally and written for 2700 years, if we stick with the 700 BCE time frame.
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#10
Anyone else notice that Lara M. Cassidy is among the authors of this paper? I suppose her Irish paper is still embargoed.
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#11
The two Z56(Z42) relatives 33 and 39 are interesting. I hope a more specific SNP can be found for them.
Their autosomal makeup seems to indicate fully Celtic Briton (somewhat Gallo-Briton for WBK33) and I wonder if the Y-dna in this case comes from Belgic people.

Durotrigian:WBK33,0.127482,0.13405,0.055437,0.040698,0.042162,0.016455,0.00188,0.003923,0.006545,0.006196,-0.002761,0.015436,-0.013528,-0.015827,0.013301,0.005304,-0.009518,-0.000887,-0.004399,0.005253,0.013102,0.012365,-0.005423,0.007712,-0.000718

Durotrigian:WBK39,0.122929,0.133034,0.056945,0.050388,0.051086,0.02008,0,0.001846,0.003272,-0.007836,-0.007957,0.014987,-0.01665,-0.020643,0.019001,0.008486,-0.01682,-0.009122,-0.008547,0.007003,-0.002246,0.005688,-0.003081,0.006145,0.000359
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U152>Z56>Z43>Z46>Z48>Z44>CTS8949>FTC82256 Lindeman
M222...>DF105>ZZ87>S588>S7814 Toner 
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#12
Any R1a?
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#13
(01-18-2025, 02:08 AM)okshtunas Wrote: Any R1a?

I find no mention of R1a within the paper.
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#14
Of personal interest is Figure 3.  

Quote:The clusters are based on the consensus of 100 runs of the Leiden algorithm on a weighted graph of IBD shared between archaeological sites and show geographical integrity. Twelve major clusters (defining nodes marked with symbols) are labelled on the basis of geographical affiliations, with further substructure within clusters emphasized using different colour shades. The cross-channel clusters are highlighted with dashed lines joining nearest geographical neighbours across the channel.

Note the area circled on the map and in the tree to the left.  Goxwiller, Alsace, France, 11 miles west of the Rhine.  It clusters with Rowbarrow and Slonk Hill.  Normally, it's areas just across the Channel that are looked at for ancestral homelands for many of these Belgic related tribes e.g. Atrebates, Belgae.  With Rowbarrow, we have a potential early Iron Age connection to people much further to the east (discussed below). 
[Image: U2h4tBH.png]


I've been exploring various hypotheses of how my y-dna line got into Britain and have done geographic analysis of the various subclades under U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869.  Goxwiller is inside the "FGC47869 polygon", within the Triboci and Mediomatrici tribal areas; to the south of the Treveri and to the northeast of the Lingones.  

No historical mention of the first 2 tribes in Britain, but the latter 2 were associated with Roman Auxiliaries recorded in Britain.  But as we know, not everything makes it into the history books.

[Image: MHLvslY.png]

The Triboci are considered a Germanic people Per wiki:
Quote:the Triboci or Tribocci were a Germanic people of eastern Gaul, inhabiting much of what is now Alsace. In the passage of Caesar, it is said that all manuscripts have “Tribucorum”.[2] "Three beeches" (Celtic tri, Germanic boc) has been suggested as an etymology, as has Germanic dribòn ("drivers [of cattle, livestock]"

Coincidentally, the Boii tribe were are associated with cattle .
Quote:In a reference to the first known historical Boii, Polybius relates[7] that their wealth consisted of cattle and gold, that they depended on agriculture and war, and that a man's status depended on the number of associates and assistants he had. The latter were presumably the *ambouii, as opposed to the man of status, who was *bouios, a cattle owner, and the *bouii were originally a class, 'the cattle owners'
Maybe there is some connection between the Triboci and the Boii.

Per the supplementary data on Rowbarrow (clusters with Goxwiller)
Quote:Rowbarrow, Wiltshire: An Early Iron Age genome from Rowbarrow (I19863) shows majority contributions from German and Czech sources. This individual was previously identified as an outlier with respect to EEF ancestry34.
Could be a Hallstatt related individual or possibly Boii as Bohemia in the Czech Rep, was named after the Boii. 

Slonk Hill may be of later origins.  Per the supplementary data.
Quote:Slonk Hill, includes an individual with a wide contextual date range (700 BC - AD 900). SOURCEFIND estimates this Slonk Hill individual to have zero contribution from the British Bronze Age population.

Slonk Hill, Sussex: We identify one individual at Slonk Hill (I1455034) whose ancestry is estimated to derive almost entirely from the Netherlands Medieval population. This individual was flagged as having an uncertain date range that overlaps with the Medieval period 34. The burial context suggests a Late
Roman or Early Medieval date
.
So the Slonk Hill sample is post Iron Age and not very helpful.
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U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Fennoscandian 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#15
(01-18-2025, 07:47 AM)Mitchell-Atkins Wrote: Of personal interest is Figure 3.  

Quote:The clusters are based on the consensus of 100 runs of the Leiden algorithm on a weighted graph of IBD shared between archaeological sites and show geographical integrity. Twelve major clusters (defining nodes marked with symbols) are labelled on the basis of geographical affiliations, with further substructure within clusters emphasized using different colour shades. The cross-channel clusters are highlighted with dashed lines joining nearest geographical neighbours across the channel.

Note the area circled on the map and in the tree to the left.  Goxwiller, Alsace, France, 11 miles west of the Rhine.  It clusters with Rowbarrow and Slonk Hill.  Normally, it's areas just across the Channel that are looked at for ancestral homelands for many of these Belgic related tribes e.g. Atrebates, Belgae.  With Rowbarrow, we have a potential early Iron Age connection to people much further to the east (discussed below). 
[Image: U2h4tBH.png]


I've been exploring various hypotheses of how my y-dna line got into Britain and have done geographic analysis of the various subclades under U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869.  Goxwiller is inside the "FGC47869 polygon", within the Triboci and Mediomatrici tribal areas; to the south of the Treveri and to the northeast of the Lingones.  

No historical mention of the first 2 tribes in Britain, but the latter 2 were associated with Roman Auxiliaries recorded in Britain.  But as we know, not everything makes it into the history books.

[Image: MHLvslY.png]

The Triboci are considered a Germanic people Per wiki:
Quote:the Triboci or Tribocci were a Germanic people of eastern Gaul, inhabiting much of what is now Alsace. In the passage of Caesar, it is said that all manuscripts have “Tribucorum”.[2] "Three beeches" (Celtic tri, Germanic boc) has been suggested as an etymology, as has Germanic dribòn ("drivers [of cattle, livestock]"

Coincidentally, the Boii tribe were are associated with cattle .
Quote:In a reference to the first known historical Boii, Polybius relates[7] that their wealth consisted of cattle and gold, that they depended on agriculture and war, and that a man's status depended on the number of associates and assistants he had. The latter were presumably the *ambouii, as opposed to the man of status, who was *bouios, a cattle owner, and the *bouii were originally a class, 'the cattle owners'
Maybe there is some connection between the Triboci and the Boii.

Per the supplementary data on Rowbarrow (clusters with Goxwiller)
Quote:Rowbarrow, Wiltshire: An Early Iron Age genome from Rowbarrow (I19863) shows majority contributions from German and Czech sources. This individual was previously identified as an outlier with respect to EEF ancestry34.
Could be a Hallstatt related individual or possibly Boii as Bohemia in the Czech Rep, was named after the Boii. 

Slonk Hill may be of later origins.  Per the supplementary data.
Quote:Slonk Hill, includes an individual with a wide contextual date range (700 BC - AD 900). SOURCEFIND estimates this Slonk Hill individual to have zero contribution from the British Bronze Age population.

Slonk Hill, Sussex: We identify one individual at Slonk Hill (I1455034) whose ancestry is estimated to derive almost entirely from the Netherlands Medieval population. This individual was flagged as having an uncertain date range that overlaps with the Medieval period 34. The burial context suggests a Late
Roman or Early Medieval date
.
So the Slonk Hill sample is post Iron Age and not very helpful.

Triboci probably is a Celtic name as their oppidum " Brocomagus " from *brocos & *magos.
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