DF27 General Discussion Thread

[Webb]

Thread for general DF27 discussions, such as origins, new discoveries, questions, help, etc.....

[Isidro]

Thank you for posting this Webb. I hope I am posting this in the right place.

While the origin of R1b-DF27 still far from solved, it is interesting to look at my own FTDNA R-S11121 story, I didn't invest in the Big Y-700 but I got results as far as this calculated 2000 BCE FTDNA descendants chart; understandably biased in the amount of testees in the US and England compared to Spain, but perhaps it helps putting it into perspective.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-S11121/story

[Webb]

Some exciting news, for me anyway. My BigY block tree at FTDNA previously started with FGC23196, but due to the increase in kits found positive for this marker, the FGC23196 block is now split and my home block tree now starts with FGC33002. Common ancestor was around 500CE and includes the surnames Webb/Wilder, Shields, and Gay. The Gay group has a few kits with the Welsh flag, but if you look at a heatmap of this surname, Devon has the most concentration of this surname. Shields is an unknown. They are from Ireland, but I do not believe they are a native Irish group. They do not match any of the Gaelic Shields, and so far there has not been any Z209 finds amongst Gaelic Surname groups. So I think Shields is originally from England. Wilder is also a bit tough as no British Wilder's have tested and there are three main, unrelated lineages in the United States. L21, U106, and our line which is DF27. Wilder heat maps show a decent concentration around London and Berkshire. Without the Berkshire group testing, it is hard to know where Wilder is originally from.

DF27>Z195>Z274>Z209>FGC83504>Z295>S25783>CTS4065>FGC23196>FGC33002

[ArmandoR1b]

Thank you for posting this Webb. I hope I am posting this in the right place.

While the origin of R1b-DF27 still far from solved, it is interesting to look at my own FTDNA R-S11121 story, I didn't invest in the Big Y-700 but I got results as far as this calculated 2000 BCE FTDNA descendants chart; understandably biased in the amount of testees in the US and England compared to Spain, but perhaps it helps putting it into perspective.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-S11121/story

Isidro. Please order Big Y-700. There is a professional genealogist in Spain with direct paternal ancestry from Asturias that had a Big Y-700 but does not match anyone below R-S11121. We need as many people as possible that are positive or potentially positive for R-S11121 to get a Big-Y 700. What if you were able to be a breakthrough for him and he for you? I am positive for R-S11121 but I have matches below R-S11121 so I am not stuck on that branch. I would still like to see more people at every branch above me including R-S11121. I really enjoy seeing what is available so far for the branches of R-S11121.

[Webb]

Thank you for posting this Webb. I hope I am posting this in the right place.

While the origin of R1b-DF27 still far from solved, it is interesting to look at my own FTDNA R-S11121 story, I didn't invest in the Big Y-700 but I got results as far as this calculated 2000 BCE FTDNA descendants chart; understandably biased in the amount of testees in the US and England compared to Spain, but perhaps it helps putting it into perspective.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-S11121/story

Isidro. Please order Big Y-700. There is a professional genealogist in Spain with direct paternal ancestry from Asturias that had a Big Y-700 but does not match anyone below R-S11121. We need as many people as possible that are positive or potentially positive for R-S11121 to get a Big-Y 700. What if you were able to be a breakthrough for him and he for you? I am positive for R-S11121 but I have matches below R-S11121 so I am not stuck on that branch. I would still like to see more people at every branch above me including R-S11121. I really enjoy seeing what is available so far for the branches of R-S11121.

I find Z198 a very interesting lineage.  According to FTDNA, the Buffa, Sicily sample is Z198 and it looks like at least half of the DF27 El Argar samples were Z198.

[Isidro]

Thank you for posting this Webb. I hope I am posting this in the right place.

While the origin of R1b-DF27 still far from solved, it is interesting to look at my own FTDNA R-S11121 story, I didn't invest in the Big Y-700 but I got results as far as this calculated 2000 BCE FTDNA descendants chart; understandably biased in the amount of testees in the US and England compared to Spain, but perhaps it helps putting it into perspective.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-S11121/story

Isidro. Please order Big Y-700. There is a professional genealogist in Spain with direct paternal ancestry from Asturias that had a Big Y-700 but does not match anyone below R-S11121. We need as many people as possible that are positive or potentially positive for R-S11121 to get a Big-Y 700. What if you were able to be a breakthrough for him and he for you? I am positive for R-S11121 but I have matches below R-S11121 so I am not stuck on that branch. I would still like to see more people at every branch above me including R-S11121. I really enjoy seeing what is available so far for the branches of R-S11121.

Ordering Big Y-700 is out of the table although it would be amazing to see more recent ancestors, my Y-lineage comes from the Comunitat Valenciana bordering Castilla; my interest was tracing locations where certain mutations in time like R-S11121 exist today and how they possibly got there and where their original common branch originated.A very complex affair but everything helps get the whole picture.

[alanarchae]

one way of looking at how DF27 got to Iberia is to consider what network routes already existed prior to 2450/2400BC when we can be pretty sure it had reached Iberia. I’m going to raise just one pre-2450BC route that clearly did exist - a route from the Rhine that moved south-west inland through northern France (crossing the rivers rather than following them) to reach the southern Loire valley, an area where the flow of contacts heading from Iberia likely also stretched to. You see a thin trail of Rhenish AOC graves following this route c. 2550-2450BC. Were they DF27? It’s assumed to relate to the Grand Pressigny exchange route which stretched as far as the Rhine. This group seems to come to an end at the same time as the Grand Pressigny-Rhine trade also ended. The question is what happened to the Rhenish who were controlling this route when their raisin d’etre came to an end with the fall of the Grand Pressigny-Rhine trade? Did this just retreat back to the Rhine? One othet posdibility is they switched interest a bit further south-west to the Iberian copper trade and maybe some migrated into Iberia.

I have read that the early copper metallurgy of the centre-west of France between the Garrone and Loire was likely of Iberian inspiration and around 2500BC there was a copper mine at El Aramo not far away and over the French-Iberian border on the Biscay coast. It does seem very possible that the Rhenish folk plying the late stages of the Grand Pressigny route c. 2550-2450BC could have encountered the Iberian-centre-west French copper metallurgy. The route these Rhenish traders used through northern France seems to have been a land not sea one, So if these Rhenish folk encountered this copper network around 2500-2450BC and followed it towards source, my guess is they’d have entered Iberia by land passing the northern end of the Pyrenees. Perhaps aiming for the El Aramo mine area which was already linked to the Biscay French coast area. Could this migrating group with origins on the Rhine heve been DF27? There land rather then sea travelling kind of matches DF27’s lack of ability to reach the isles in the beaker era too. I’ve long suspected DF27 was located a little upstream of L21 and was not in that early beaker era a maritime kind of group.

Also, the trail of Rhenish burials through inland northern france so far discovered is thin indicating small numbers and it would be easy to have missed earlier Rhenish people plying the trade route. So although these are post2600BC in date, I suspect there were earlier Rhenish folk plying it. Certainly AFAIK the Grand Pressigny trade to the Rhine was operating well before 2600BC. One possible bit of evidence for Rhenish influences reaching along this route is the small scatter of peninsular corded beaker in Iberia from at least the 2600sBC.

So imo the chronology and geography of the Rhenish group would fit a thin network that passed through France to the Loire valley becoming aware of the early copper groups between the Loire and Garonne and the presence of a mine at El Aramo and passing c. 2450BC into Iberia by land by a route around the Biscay coast. From memory, most of the pre 2200BC ancient DNA with steppe genetics in Iberia are in that kind of area not the south and west of Iberia. I am not ruling out multiple routes and phases for DF27 migration into Iberia but I suspect what I suggest above is the first one and likely the most important.

Another thing - it seems a lot more logical from the ancient DNA and archaeology to see the upper Rhine as U152 territory. That places a big doubt over the idea DF27 took a Rhine-Rhone-Iberia route. That said, there is a 2nd route to the Rhone from the inland bit of the Lower Rhine that goes from the Rhine at the Dutch/German border through the middle of Belgium then south through eastern France then a short overland trip to the Saone and Rhone. That bypasses the Upper Rhine/west Alpine area which must have been U152 dominated and culturally fits more into the beaker east group anyway. So it’s possible that DF27 could have entered Iberia from two routes that both commenced on the Rhine near the Dutch/Getmsn border. Interestingly, when I tried to work out a logical route for the Rhine-Grand Pressigny trade, it also seems to have likely commenced from that part of the Rhine and initially followed the Meuse through Belgium (though it then diverted overland to cross the Seine rather than follow the rest of the Meuse deep into France). This points to me that DF27’s point of origin was likely around the Nijmegen /Arnhem area. The Rhine downsteam of there was presumably occupied by L21

[alanarchae]

maybe of interest https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...23-09625-6

[Mitchell-Atkins]

one way of looking at how DF27 got to Iberia is to consider what network routes already existed prior to 2450/2400BC when we can be pretty sure it had reached Iberia. I’m going to raise just one pre-2450BC route that clearly did exist - a route from the Rhine that moved south-west inland through northern France (crossing the rivers rather than following them) to reach the southern Loire valley, an area where the flow of contacts heading from Iberia likely also stretched to. You see a thin trail of Rhenish AOC graves following this route c. 2550-2450BC. Were they DF27?  It’s assumed to relate to the Grand Pressigny exchange route which stretched as far as the Rhine. This group seems to come to an end at the same time as the Grand Pressigny-Rhine trade also ended. The question is what happened to the Rhenish who were controlling this route when their raisin d’etre came to an end with the fall of the Grand Pressigny-Rhine trade? Did this just retreat back to the Rhine? One othet posdibility  is they switched interest a bit further south-west to the Iberian copper trade and maybe some migrated into Iberia.

I have read that the early copper metallurgy of the centre-west of France between the Garrone and Loire was likely of Iberian inspiration and around 2500BC there was a copper mine at El Aramo not far away and over the French-Iberian border on the Biscay coast.  It does seem very possible that the Rhenish folk plying the late stages of the Grand Pressigny route c. 2550-2450BC could have encountered the Iberian-centre-west French copper metallurgy. The route these Rhenish traders used through northern France seems to have been a land not sea one, So if these Rhenish folk encountered this copper network around 2500-2450BC and followed it towards source, my guess is they’d have entered Iberia by land passing the northern end of the Pyrenees. Perhaps aiming for the El Aramo mine area which was already linked to  the Biscay French coast area. Could this migrating group with origins on the Rhine  heve been DF27? There land rather then sea travelling kind of matches DF27’s lack of ability to reach the isles in the beaker era too. I’ve long suspected DF27 was located a little upstream of L21 and was not in that early beaker era a maritime kind of group.

Also, the trail of Rhenish burials through inland northern france so far discovered is thin indicating small numbers and it would be easy to have missed earlier Rhenish people plying the trade route. So although these are post2600BC in date, I suspect there were earlier Rhenish folk plying it. Certainly AFAIK the Grand Pressigny trade to the Rhine was operating well before 2600BC. One possible bit of evidence for Rhenish influences reaching along this route is the small scatter of peninsular corded beaker in Iberia from at least the 2600sBC.

So imo the chronology and geography of the Rhenish group would fit a thin network that passed through France to the Loire valley becoming aware of the early copper groups between the Loire and Garonne and the presence of a mine at El Aramo and passing c. 2450BC into Iberia by land by a route around the Biscay coast. From memory, most of the pre 2200BC ancient DNA with steppe genetics in Iberia are in that kind of area not the south and west of Iberia. I am not ruling out multiple routes and phases for DF27 migration into Iberia but I suspect what I suggest above is the first one and likely the most important.

Another thing - it seems a lot more logical from the ancient DNA and archaeology to see the upper Rhine as U152 territory. That places a big doubt over the idea DF27 took a Rhine-Rhone-Iberia route. That said, there is a 2nd route to the Rhone from the inland bit of the Lower Rhine that goes from the Rhine at the Dutch/German border through the middle of Belgium then south through eastern France then a short overland trip to the Saone and Rhone. That bypasses the Upper Rhine/west Alpine area which must have been U152 dominated and culturally fits more into the beaker east group anyway. So it’s possible that DF27 could have entered Iberia from two routes that both commenced on the Rhine near the Dutch/Getmsn border. Interestingly, when I tried to work out a logical route for the Rhine-Grand Pressigny trade, it also seems to have likely commenced from that part of the Rhine and initially followed the Meuse through Belgium (though it then diverted overland to cross the Seine rather than follow the rest of the Meuse deep into France). This points to me that DF27’s point of origin was likely  around the Nijmegen  /Arnhem area. The Rhine downsteam of there was presumably occupied by L21

This BB map has been around for a while online but it generally follows your idea.   I added the L21?, DF27?, U152? labels to the original map.



EDIT, After posting this I've got this "yeah that's it" feeling...which is just after I noted on Plysteen's map that there might be some serious DF27 branching in the vicinity of Belgium and Luxembourg.
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=157&pid=4922

For a while now, DF27 has struck me as a "middle man" between L21 and U152. Started out with U152, but seems to get into the Brit/Ir-ish Isles after L21, but much sooner than U152.

[alanarchae]

one way of looking at how DF27 got to Iberia is to consider what network routes already existed prior to 2450/2400BC when we can be pretty sure it had reached Iberia. I’m going to raise just one pre-2450BC route that clearly did exist - a route from the Rhine that moved south-west inland through northern France (crossing the rivers rather than following them) to reach the southern Loire valley, an area where the flow of contacts heading from Iberia likely also stretched to. You see a thin trail of Rhenish AOC graves following this route c. 2550-2450BC. Were they DF27?  It’s assumed to relate to the Grand Pressigny exchange route which stretched as far as the Rhine. This group seems to come to an end at the same time as the Grand Pressigny-Rhine trade also ended. The question is what happened to the Rhenish who were controlling this route when their raisin d’etre came to an end with the fall of the Grand Pressigny-Rhine trade? Did this just retreat back to the Rhine? One othet posdibility  is they switched interest a bit further south-west to the Iberian copper trade and maybe some migrated into Iberia.

I have read that the early copper metallurgy of the centre-west of France between the Garrone and Loire was likely of Iberian inspiration and around 2500BC there was a copper mine at El Aramo not far away and over the French-Iberian border on the Biscay coast.  It does seem very possible that the Rhenish folk plying the late stages of the Grand Pressigny route c. 2550-2450BC could have encountered the Iberian-centre-west French copper metallurgy. The route these Rhenish traders used through northern France seems to have been a land not sea one, So if these Rhenish folk encountered this copper network around 2500-2450BC and followed it towards source, my guess is they’d have entered Iberia by land passing the northern end of the Pyrenees. Perhaps aiming for the El Aramo mine area which was already linked to  the Biscay French coast area. Could this migrating group with origins on the Rhine  heve been DF27? There land rather then sea travelling kind of matches DF27’s lack of ability to reach the isles in the beaker era too. I’ve long suspected DF27 was located a little upstream of L21 and was not in that early beaker era a maritime kind of group.

Also, the trail of Rhenish burials through inland northern france so far discovered is thin indicating small numbers and it would be easy to have missed earlier Rhenish people plying the trade route. So although these are post2600BC in date, I suspect there were earlier Rhenish folk plying it. Certainly AFAIK the Grand Pressigny trade to the Rhine was operating well before 2600BC. One possible bit of evidence for Rhenish influences reaching along this route is the small scatter of peninsular corded beaker in Iberia from at least the 2600sBC.

So imo the chronology and geography of the Rhenish group would fit a thin network that passed through France to the Loire valley becoming aware of the early copper groups between the Loire and Garonne and the presence of a mine at El Aramo and passing c. 2450BC into Iberia by land by a route around the Biscay coast. From memory, most of the pre 2200BC ancient DNA with steppe genetics in Iberia are in that kind of area not the south and west of Iberia. I am not ruling out multiple routes and phases for DF27 migration into Iberia but I suspect what I suggest above is the first one and likely the most important.

Another thing - it seems a lot more logical from the ancient DNA and archaeology to see the upper Rhine as U152 territory. That places a big doubt over the idea DF27 took a Rhine-Rhone-Iberia route. That said, there is a 2nd route to the Rhone from the inland bit of the Lower Rhine that goes from the Rhine at the Dutch/German border through the middle of Belgium then south through eastern France then a short overland trip to the Saone and Rhone. That bypasses the Upper Rhine/west Alpine area which must have been U152 dominated and culturally fits more into the beaker east group anyway. So it’s possible that DF27 could have entered Iberia from two routes that both commenced on the Rhine near the Dutch/Getmsn border. Interestingly, when I tried to work out a logical route for the Rhine-Grand Pressigny trade, it also seems to have likely commenced from that part of the Rhine and initially followed the Meuse through Belgium (though it then diverted overland to cross the Seine rather than follow the rest of the Meuse deep into France). This points to me that DF27’s point of origin was likely  around the Nijmegen  /Arnhem area. The Rhine downsteam of there was presumably occupied by L21

This BB map has been around for a while online but it generally follows your idea.   I added the L21?, DF27?, U152? labels to the original map.



EDIT, After posting this I've got this "yeah that's it" feeling...which is just after I noted on Plysteen's map that there might be some serious DF27 branching in the vicinity of Belgium and Luxembourg.
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=157&pid=4922

For a while now, DF27 has struck me as a "middle man" between L21 and U152.  Started out with U152, but seems to get into the Brit/Ir-ish Isles after L21, but much sooner than U152.

I think following the Meuse route back to its Rhine source points to an origin point on the Dutch/German border near the inland part of the lower Rhine. I wouldn’t rule out DF27 to have been important as far as the middle Rhine in which case the  Mosselle would provide another route into France. However I am pretty convinced U152 must have been in charge once you reach Mainz and access east the the river Main.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Looking at the Luxembourg DF27 FTDNA data:

59 total samples in the database are from Luxembourg, of which 5 are DF27.

Of these 5:
1 is DF27>ZZ12_1>FTT1>FGC76459.  TMRCA 2428 BC
1 is DF27>ZZ12_1>FTT1>FGC78762.  TMRCA 2438 BC
1 is DF27>Z195>Z274.  TMRCA 2545 BC
2 are is DF27>Z195>Z198>CTS4188.  TMRCA 2377 BC
1 of these is DF27>Z195>Z198>CTS4188>S11121>Z29704>S11121>TBD #1, TMRCA 2049 BC
1 of these is DF27>Z195>Z198>CTS4188>S11121>Z29704>S11121>TBD #2,  TMRCA 2049 BC
As you can see, none have a TMRCA after 2000 BC, with 3 of them are prior to 2400 BC.

The Rhine-Meuse corridor and the Beaker phenomenon in North-west Europe Nested between France, Germany and Belgium on the Moselle River, Luxembourg has yielded prehistoric burials of international significance, notably the double Beaker-period grave of Altwies, in south Luxembourg, which resembles in layout the so-called ‘echinoid burial’ of Dunstable Downs, in south Bedfordshire, England. Collective graves were increasingly replaced during the third millennium BC by single pit graves, and characterised by repetitive burial assemblages, including the eponymous S-shaped beakers (Figure 4). Discovered in 2000 during rescue excavations on Highway A13 to Germany, the Altwies grave is one of two Late Neolithic burials cut into cultural deposits from an older Linearbandkeramik settlement (Le Brun-Ricalens et al. 2001). Grave 2, depicted in Figure 5, is thought to belong to a ‘mother’ and her ‘child’. Preliminary shallow sequencing of ancient DNA has confirmed the biological sex of the adult as female and the child as male. The grave is being re-examined within the wider European context of ‘steppe’ dispersals from a hypothetical core area in the Pontic-Caspian region. As with the two partial genomes from the Mondelange necropolis in the French Moselle area included in the study by Olalde and colleagues (2018), the Altwies genomes have revealed high levels of ‘steppe-derived’ ancestry, suggesting that the Rhine-Meuse region experienced significant gene flow from populations further east (Figure 6). The presence of All-Over-Cord (AOC) Beakers in Britain has long been seen as an indication of a direct link, if not outright migration, from the Rhineland region, via the Low Countries (Harrison 1974). Such a hypothesis can now be tested using high-coverage ancient genomes from Luxembourg. The Beakerperiod skeletons of Dunstable Downs, uncovered in 1887 (Smith 1894), were sampled by the authors in Luton Museum in 2022, and DNA was successfully extracted.

Investigating the prehistory of Luxembourg using
ancient genomes

[Pylsteen]

Cross-post from the P312 thread;
here a slightly updated map for the modern day DF27 frequencies based on the FTDNA discover/time tree tool (added Northern Ireland, Sardinia and Basque; I did not add all the Spanish regions or Corsica because the number of people using these regions is small), note that these percentages may differ from the Y Haplotree or other studies; most important is the general trend:

   

As an addition, here a comparison of the amount of subclade growth of ZZ12_1 vs. Z195 based on the Time Tree:

   

ZZ12_1 seems to have a stronger presence in both Iberia and Britain, and (according to the time tree) had a stronger growth during the Bell Beaker period. It is found regularly in Bronze Age and Iron Age Britain as well as in Bronze Age Iberian. I wonder whether Lusitanian might be connected to the spread of this branch.

Z195 however shows a later growth according to the time tree, especially during the Bronze and Iron Age. In France/Germany/Benelux it seems more common than ZZ12_1. Ancient samples are very common in Bronze Age Iberia (El Argar).

If we look at the Bell Beaker map Mitchell posted, I am tempted to connect ZZ12_1 to that purple maritime Beaker Group, and the Z195 to the group that went down the Rhone. So a question would be: what is the source of both streams? The Moselle region indeed?

[Mitchell-Atkins]

DF27 map using FTDNA & German FB data (uses FTDNA data), and Eupedia data (also uses FTDNA data), and Dutch DNA study.

As there was no DF27 map in the Dutch study, I noted that there is 344% more DF27 than DF27>SRY2627/M163 in the FTDNA database, and simply took the M163 map key percentages and multiplied them by 3.444 to get an overall DF27 percent...probably not the most accurate map for the Netherlands but I guess it's better than just coloring the whole of the Netherlands 1 color like I did for Belgium (no DF27 break out in the Brabant study).

Also highlighted the Loire, Seine, Marne, Rhone, Meuse, Moselle, and Rhine Rivers for easier viewing.



Another map for River Reference

[Mitchell-Atkins]

If DF27 originated in the Mittelelbe Saalle/Anhalt region, then it might look something like this and explain why there are so many early TMRCA in neighboring Luxembourg.
Top map is an online beaker density map.  I simply used it to accurately place the circle on the present day map distribution.

[dalluin]

Since yesterday, we went on ftdna from 47 R-BY27831+ (direct subclade of ZZ12_1) to 59 suddenly : 12 more at once !! For the moment, the new ones are all classified R-BY27832+ (probably temporarily): 1 Cuban, 1 Greek, 1 second French (I am no longer alone) and 9 Unknown Origin (22 in total). Impatient to know their terminal haplogroup (There are only 3 of us in our small subclade R-Y250181 under R-BY27832)