Will the Ancient Egyptian samples ever be published?

[ilabv]

Just don't make any sweeping statements on the origins of Dynastic Egypt until you have thoroughly tested the remains from Naqada II and III period burials, that's all I'm asking. Because eventually they will get tested and the "archaeogenetic scientific community" will then have to pretend there's nothing special about them ending up being genetically closer to modern Levantines (if not modern Armenians/Iraqi Jews), than to Coptic Egyptians.

They won't even be that immensely close to Coptic Egyptians, much less Levantines and Armenians. Everyone already knows about the *Old Kingdom samples from Giza* and they are too southern to be a good match for Copts.

Are you implying that Upper Egypt was more Eurasian admixed than Lower Egypt, and that more African Lower Egyptians somehow demographically replaced more Eurasian Upper Egyptians? Not to mention the very clear anthropology showing more African influence in the south vs the north. And of course the artistic depictions from the first two dynasties, before the civil war.

[Granary]

Just don't make any sweeping statements on the origins of Dynastic Egypt until you have thoroughly tested the remains from Naqada II and III period burials, that's all I'm asking. Because eventually they will get tested and the "archaeogenetic scientific community" will then have to pretend there's nothing special about them ending up being genetically closer to modern Levantines (if not modern Armenians/Iraqi Jews), than to Coptic Egyptians.

They won't even be that immensely close to Coptic Egyptians, much less Levantines and Armenians. Everyone already knows about the *Old Kingdom samples from Giza* and they are too southern to be a good match for Copts.

Do we? Where?

[Vautrin]

One thing that seems to throw things a bit off is the appearance of Natufians. In addition to darker skin, they also seem to have retained certain archaic/"tropical" characteristics, which is why they cluster intermediate to UP Eurasians and SSA groups. You see a similar thing with Indians clustering with Horners and Nubians due to their AASI. 

I like this recent depiction by AncestralWhispers:

https://x.com/Sulkalmakh/status/1863236617642942523

Some commenters were annoyed by it, thinking it looks too "quadroon" or Indian, but I think that's probably how Natufians looked. To me, Mehri (70+% Natufian with little or no non-deep SSA) look a bit like Indians or in some cases, even resemble Horners, Nubians, Sudanese Arabs, etc., at least the more Eurasian looking ones (notably, Greeks and Romans saw Southern Indians and "Ethiopians" as somewhat ethnically similar, with the caveat that the former were less snub-nosed and had straighter hair).

BTW, has anyone read "X-Raying the Pharaohs" by Harris and Weeks (you can get it for free off archive.org with trickery)? This, as well as a similarly titled book by the same authors (also on archive.org), gets quoted a lot by Afrocentrists, but a lot of these quotes seem to be entirely made up. I haven't read either work in its entirety, but just from judiciously skimming them, it mostly seems to be concerned with getting the genealogy right, finding out "who's who", etc. Ethnicity isn't brought up a great deal, and to the extent that it is, I can only see a Nubian background being explicitly proposed for Tao & his family, so even if it were true, the rest of the Dynasty likely would have been of mixed Egypto-Nubian or mostly Egyptian origin, though there may have been influence from other foreign populations at later points (e.g., Mitanni), as some have proposed in the case of Nefertiti, Yuya, etc. 

Here is the quote about Tao: 

"Of particular interest and importance are the physical features revealed by Tao's mummy. All the teeth, and he possesses a complete set, are remarkably healthy, well spaced, and
practically unworn — none of these were particularly common attributes of the Egyptian pharaohs. His entire lower facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs (it is
closest to that of his son Ahmose) that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in
the past have proposed a Nubian — that is, non-Egyptian — origin for Seqenenre and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true.' If it is, the history of the
family that reputedly drove the Hyksos from Egypt, and the history of the Seventeenth Dynasty, stand in need of considerable re-examination."

Regarding Tao's background, there appears to be a bit of uncertainty. Some connect his lineage with earlier 17th Dynasty rulers, but others suggest he was a commoner, possibly a usurper, which would make sense if he were a Medjay mercenary or something of that sort. His wife, Tetisheri can more confidently said to have been a commoner. But there's so little information about many of these individuals' backgrounds, one can only make inferences. There's also the matter of Egyptianized foreigners often taking Egyptian names. 

I don't want to spam any more pictures, which is too often the case when this topic comes up, but I figured I'd at least post Tao's mummy. If you look at things on a spectrum from Ramesses II (the most Levantine looking mummy) to Maiherpri (confirmed Nubian, and you can tell from his mummy), he definitely looks a lot closer to the latter than the former. Make of that what you will. I'm mostly agnostic on this issue. I just think some people are a little too quick to dismiss the potential of any Nubian influence.

[masta]

There was no Egypt HG , during Mesolithic egypt only had SSA HG living in Nubia , and in north NONE , just some roaming natufian HG in eastern desert.

Predynastic upper egyptains were not indigenous to egypt , they were Libyan pastoralists ( ultimately mainly Levantine , minor ibm mixed group) who migrated to upper egypt in Neolithic due to the desiccation and
mixed with lower egyptian farmers

Predynastic upper egyptian's Libyan ancestors are the same Common ancestor to the old kingdom libyan Tjemehu and Upper egyptians
they had many cultural motifs and deep rooted mythological traits.

The SSA in Northern Pastoralists of North africa including predynastic upper egypt and contemporary nubia was very limited it only heavily affected eastern african pastoralists, and
later Nubians.

anytime.

[ilabv]

There was no Egypt HG , during Mesolithic egypt only had SSA HG living in Nubia , and in north NONE , just some roaming natufian HG in eastern desert.

Predynastic upper egyptains were not indigenous to egypt , they were Libyan pastoralists ( ultimately mainly Levantine , minor ibm mixed group) who migrated to upper egypt in Neolithic due to the desiccation and
mixed with lower egyptian farmers

Predynastic upper egyptian's Libyan ancestors are the same Common ancestor to the old kingdom libyan Tjemehu and Upper egyptians
they had many cultural motifs and deep rooted mythological traits.

The SSA in Northern Pastoralists of North africa including predynastic upper egypt and contemporary nubia was very limited it only heavily affected eastern african pastoralists, and
later Nubians.

anytime.

"Predynastic upper egyptains were not indigenous to egypt , they were Libyan pastoralists ( ultimately mainly Levantine , minor ibm mixed group) who migrated to upper egypt in Neolithic due to the desiccation and"

And what is your basis for thinking this?

[masta]

There was no Egypt HG , during Mesolithic egypt only had SSA HG living in Nubia , and in north NONE , just some roaming natufian HG in eastern desert.

Predynastic upper egyptains were not indigenous to egypt , they were Libyan pastoralists ( ultimately mainly Levantine , minor ibm mixed group) who migrated to upper egypt in Neolithic due to the desiccation and
mixed with lower egyptian farmers

Predynastic upper egyptian's Libyan ancestors are the same Common ancestor to the old kingdom libyan Tjemehu and Upper egyptians
they had many cultural motifs and deep rooted mythological traits.

The SSA in Northern Pastoralists of North africa including predynastic upper egypt and contemporary nubia was very limited it only heavily affected eastern african pastoralists, and
later Nubians.

anytime.

"Predynastic upper egyptains were not indigenous to egypt , they were Libyan pastoralists ( ultimately mainly Levantine , minor ibm mixed group) who migrated to upper egypt in Neolithic due to the desiccation and"

And what is your basis for thinking this?

The archeological research was very clear on this  there's hiatus between Mesolithic and Neolithic population in upper egypt, 
the population who formed the predynastic upper egypt had mainly lower egyptian and libyan origins.

Its very clear to me that i'm just waiting the aDNA samples to confirm it , hopefully without contamination or Damage.

[Vautrin]

The archeological research was very clear on this  there's hiatus between Mesolithic and Neolithic population in upper egypt, 
the population who formed the predynastic upper egypt had mainly lower egyptian and libyan origins.

Its very clear to me that i'm just waiting the aDNA samples to confirm it , hopefully without contamination or Damage.

Al-Khiday clusters with Neolithic Nubians. But the other Mesolithic samples from Sudan cluster with SSAs. I assume this mysterious outlier is Nile HG and presumably also the original proto-Afro-Asiatic population. Natufians are supposedly Mushabian + Kebaran, and the former are believed to have originated from North Africa, possibly the Nile Valley.

[masta]

Maybe let me rephrase it "There was NO Natufian or Natufian-like GENOME in the Nile Valley Pre-Neolithic"

[nee4speed111]

The paper is out, can be found on page 192.

https://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/id/eprint/18979/

[Ironside]

so did NUE001 carry Mota like admixture or not ? this discrepancy between ADMIXTURE and qpAdm also happens with Natufians. wonder why

[Norfern-Ostrobothnian]

ADMIXTURE tries to pull away from Eurasians while qpAdm correctly notices the fact that the Ancient North African in Natufians and Iberomaurusians is merely a sister group of Eurasians but is more related to it than to any other group. Iberomaurusians do not have a special connection to Mota or any other Sub-Saharan African population that Eurasians do not also have.

[ilabv]

There was no Egypt HG , during Mesolithic egypt only had SSA HG living in Nubia , and in north NONE , just some roaming natufian HG in eastern desert.

Predynastic upper egyptains were not indigenous to egypt , they were Libyan pastoralists ( ultimately mainly Levantine , minor ibm mixed group) who migrated to upper egypt in Neolithic due to the desiccation and
mixed with lower egyptian farmers

Predynastic upper egyptian's Libyan ancestors are the same Common ancestor to the old kingdom libyan Tjemehu and Upper egyptians
they had many cultural motifs and deep rooted mythological traits.

The SSA in Northern Pastoralists of North africa including predynastic upper egypt and contemporary nubia was very limited it only heavily affected eastern african pastoralists, and
later Nubians.

anytime.

"Predynastic upper egyptains were not indigenous to egypt , they were Libyan pastoralists ( ultimately mainly Levantine , minor ibm mixed group) who migrated to upper egypt in Neolithic due to the desiccation and"

And what is your basis for thinking this?

The archeological research was very clear on this  there's hiatus between Mesolithic and Neolithic population in upper egypt, 
the population who formed the predynastic upper egypt had mainly lower egyptian and libyan origins.

Its very clear to me that i'm just waiting the aDNA samples to confirm it , hopefully without contamination or Damage.

Can you provide sources for this archaeological research? I know of only two old papers that suggest this.

[ilabv]

Maybe let me rephrase it "There was NO Natufian or Natufian-like GENOME in the Nile Valley Pre-Neolithic"

So then the Eurasian ancestry in Mesolithic Iberomaurusians came from where exactly? Teleportation from Levant to Northwest Africa? Amazing that this ancestry conveniently misses Egypt but makes it all over Northwest Africa

[ilabv]

ADMIXTURE tries to pull away from Eurasians while qpAdm correctly notices the fact that the Ancient North African in Natufians and Iberomaurusians is merely a sister group of Eurasians but is more related to it than to any other group. Iberomaurusians do not have a special connection to Mota or any other Sub-Saharan African population that Eurasians do not also have.

The fact that the best proxy for the 'ANA' ancestry in IBM is Dinka or Mota, and that IBM score 45% Dinka or Mota when its used, should be indication of the African affinites of ANA.

ANA is not closer to Eurasians due to some poor f3 stats, that are biased towards inbred (low effective pop size) groups.

[masta]

Based on ADMIXTURE results , and qpadm it looks like this Nuerat sample is not just "Natufian" as the abstract was claiming.

He has small ancestries not found in Morocco EN , which is small pink = Anatolia Epipaleolithic and small blue CHG,

so we can say that this sample has levant PPNB ancestry , the sample look from here vaguely similar to the leaked old kingdom sample from saqqara.

the Ancestry maximized in Mota and Gumuz looks like its elevated in "deep rich" populations like Morocco EN and Bedouin B which is representative of High Natufian ancestry ,

its also found in one sample in Turkey N and in Lebanon IA most likely this is aDNA damage ...so this ancestry is both SSA / Damage / and Deep ancestry ANA + Basal eurasian.

Its elevated a little in west asians due to No proper representation of the Natufian component.