Paeonian Y DNA

[Aramu]

I made this chart based on Lazaridis 2022 data. Outliers are excluded. Below are some preliminary conclusions.

Based on this data Paeonians were less likely to be related to Illyrians, given the absence of J2b-L283. They were probably related to Phrygian and ancient Macedonians. A connection with Thracians is also possible but less likely.

Paeonians Y DNA from ancient North Macedonia 

[Riverman]

The sample is of course very small, but I think that R1b will turn out to be the main regional lineage of Paeonians, with E-V13 being the result of Thracian admixture and contacts, J2a of Greek admixture and contacts.

[Arberiunum]

I made this chart based on Lazaridis 2022 data. Outliers are excluded. Below are some preliminary conclusions.

Based on this data Paeonians were less likely to be related to Illyrians, given the absence of J2b-L283. They were probably related to Phrygian and ancient Macedonians. A connection with Thracians is also possible but less likely.

Paeonians Y DNA from ancient North Macedonia 

Macedonia_BA is the only one who should be considered Paeonian

[pelop]

We don't know for sure that these people were Paeonians and n=7 is a tiny sample size to make pie charts anyway.

The characterisation of Y lineages found in the Iron Age as "Neolithic" is dubious, surely E1b is also "Neolithic"? How are you sure that, for example, the C1 lineage wasn't also a recent newcomer into that area?

[Balkaniika]

The specific albanian R1b-z2075 probsbly came from the Paeonians.

[Kelmendasi]

The specific albanian R1b-z2075 probsbly came from the Paeonians.

There isn't any strong or truly convincing evidence for this, we know from the current archaeogenetic record that branches of R1b-CTS7556 were spread across the west-central Balkans (f.e. Albania and N. Macedonia) with downstream R1b-CTS1450 being especially diverse in what would become historical southern Illyria. However, none of the current samples belonged to a branch directly ancestral to R1b-Z2705.

What can be said with a great degree of confidence is that the MRCA lived somewhere in the Antique or Late Antique west-central Balkans in a Proto-Albanian context. While not much can be said of Paeonian genetics due to the very limited sample size, they do not appear to be the best candidates for other historical and linguistic reasons (f.e. strong Hellenisation). Although I do believe that parts of modern territory of N. Macedonia were important hubs for Proto-Albanian-speakers during the Roman period and possibly earlier.

[Balkaniika]

The specific albanian R1b-z2075 probsbly came from the Paeonians.

There isn't any strong or truly convincing evidence for this, we know from the current archaeogenetic record that branches of R1b-CTS7556 were spread across the west-central Balkans (f.e. Albania and N. Macedonia) with downstream R1b-CTS1450 being especially diverse in what would become historical southern Illyria. However, none of the current samples belonged to a branch directly ancestral to R1b-Z2705.

What can be said with a great degree of confidence is that the MRCA lived somewhere in the Antique or Late Antique west-central Balkans in a Proto-Albanian context. While not much can be said of Paeonian genetics due to the very limited sample size, they do not appear to be the best candidates for other historical and linguistic reasons (f.e. strong Hellenisation). Although I do believe that parts of modern territory of N. Macedonia were important hubs for Proto-Albanian-speakers during the Roman period and possibly earlier.

Reading ”South Albania Tumulus DNA samples” on eupedia Paleorevange claims that the albanian branch has nothing to do with illyrians? Why is that?

[Kelmendasi]

Reading ”South Albania Tumulus DNA samples” on eupedia Paleorevange claims that the albanian branch has nothing to do with illyrians? Why is that?

Those statements are simply the user's opinions. What can be said for certain is that they're not based on any convincing evidence since we currently lack aDNA samples immediately upstream/parallel to R1b-Z2705, and modern distribution/phylogeny argues against an eastern or east-central Balkan association (virtually all eastern Balkan samples are under downstream clades that expanded east in different trajectories during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages).

[Aspar]

I made this chart based on Lazaridis 2022 data. Outliers are excluded. Below are some preliminary conclusions.

Based on this data Paeonians were less likely to be related to Illyrians, given the absence of J2b-L283. They were probably related to Phrygian and ancient Macedonians. A connection with Thracians is also possible but less likely.

Paeonians Y DNA from ancient North Macedonia 

With all due respect for your work, this graph unfortunately doesn't represent the Paeonians only. It's important to understand that these are samples from different sites and different time frames. On the territory of N.Macedonia lived several different people and NOT Paeonians only. The Paeonians were only situated in the eastern part of the country, while in the west there were Illyrians and in the south-west we find people related to the ancient Greeks such as Pelagonians.
On the other hand, samples from the Hellenistic period are unlikely to represent Paeonians because the site from Isar Marcinci is the ancient Idomenae which was founded by the ancient Macedonians after they conquered the area from the Paeonians. 

In that regard, the samples from Plaošnik in Ohrid and the ones from Isar Marcinci are unlikely to represent Paeonians no matter if auDna wise there were insignificant differences between these and the actual Paeonians.

[nomad01]

I made this chart based on Lazaridis 2022 data. Outliers are excluded. Below are some preliminary conclusions.

Based on this data Paeonians were less likely to be related to Illyrians, given the absence of J2b-L283. They were probably related to Phrygian and ancient Macedonians. A connection with Thracians is also possible but less likely.

Paeonians Y DNA from ancient North Macedonia 

With all due respect for your work, this graph unfortunately doesn't represent the Paeonians only. It's important to understand that these are samples from different sites and different time frames. On the territory of N.Macedonia lived several different people and NOT Paeonians only. The Paeonians were only situated in the eastern part of the country, while in the west there were Illyrians and in the south-west we find people related to the ancient Greeks such as Pelagonians.
On the other hand, samples from the Hellenistic period are unlikely to represent Paeonians because the site from Isar Marcinci is the ancient Idomenae which was founded by the ancient Macedonians after they conquered the area from the Paeonians. 

In that regard, the samples from Plaošnik in Ohrid and the ones from Isar Marcinci are unlikely to represent Paeonians no matter if auDna wise there were insignificant differences between these and the actual Paeonians.

Could you share the tribal/ethnic assignment for each tested Macedonian BA/IA site, in your opinion?

[Aspar]

I made this chart based on Lazaridis 2022 data. Outliers are excluded. Below are some preliminary conclusions.


Paeonians Y DNA from ancient North Macedonia 

With all due respect for your work, this graph unfortunately doesn't represent the Paeonians only. It's important to understand that these are samples from different sites and different time frames. On the territory of N.Macedonia lived several different people and NOT Paeonians only. The Paeonians were only situated in the eastern part of the country, while in the west there were Illyrians and in the south-west we find people related to the ancient Greeks such as Pelagonians.
On the other hand, samples from the Hellenistic period are unlikely to represent Paeonians because the site from Isar Marcinci is the ancient Idomenae which was founded by the ancient Macedonians after they conquered the area from the Paeonians. 

In that regard, the samples from Plaošnik in Ohrid and the ones from Isar Marcinci are unlikely to represent Paeonians no matter if auDna wise there were insignificant differences between these and the actual Paeonians.

Could you share the tribal/ethnic assignment for each tested Macedonian BA/IA site, in your opinion?

The BA Ulanci group practiced inhumation burials, had close ties to the Aegean world and was very different to the cultures just north of it which practiced cremation. The Ulanci group used mat painted pottery and in that regard it's similar to the related cultures of Greece and south Albania that used mat painted pottery. IMO this culture represents people that were linguistically and culturally very close to the proto Greek people, possibly the Bryges, that were later known as Phryges or Phrygians.

As for the samples from the first millennium BC:
Plaošnik, Ohrid: No Paeonians were ever recorded this west historically, nor archaeologically. The people of this site represent one entity with the people from the site of Trebenište where the famous golden masks were found. Possibly related the BA mat painted culture from South Albania and direct continuation from it hence IMO these were some Greekoid people. In the later phase the Illyrians conquered the area. In the historical accounts the tribes of Enchelei and Dessaratii are recorded there, neither of which were considered Paeonians.

Bucinci, Govrlevo, Vodovrati: likely Paeonians, although this area was very fluid and represented a border with the bearers of the Glasinac-Mati culture. "Macedonian Bronzes", distinctive future of the Paeonians and their culture dominate the area. It's only during the second half of the first millennium BCE that the Dardani expand here hence IMO these samples from before 500 BCE are Paeonians.

Gradsko, Lisičin Dol: Paeonians

Isar Marcinci: this site represents the ancient Idomenae which was an ancient Macedonian city founded by the ancient Macedonians after they conquered the area from the Paeonians. Although the cities of the ancient Macedonians were cosmopolitan and other people besides ancient Macedonians likely lived there, I don't think we can give these Hellenistic samples any other label apart from simply ancient Macedonian. One sample on the other hand was dated to the late Hellenistic/early Roman times and was very MENA like.

[nomad01]

With all due respect for your work, this graph unfortunately doesn't represent the Paeonians only. It's important to understand that these are samples from different sites and different time frames. On the territory of N.Macedonia lived several different people and NOT Paeonians only. The Paeonians were only situated in the eastern part of the country, while in the west there were Illyrians and in the south-west we find people related to the ancient Greeks such as Pelagonians.
On the other hand, samples from the Hellenistic period are unlikely to represent Paeonians because the site from Isar Marcinci is the ancient Idomenae which was founded by the ancient Macedonians after they conquered the area from the Paeonians. 

In that regard, the samples from Plaošnik in Ohrid and the ones from Isar Marcinci are unlikely to represent Paeonians no matter if auDna wise there were insignificant differences between these and the actual Paeonians.

Could you share the tribal/ethnic assignment for each tested Macedonian BA/IA site, in your opinion?

The BA Ulanci group practiced inhumation burials, had close ties to the Aegean world and was very different to the cultures just north of it which practiced cremation. The Ulanci group used mat painted pottery and in that regard it's similar to the related cultures of Greece and south Albania that used mat painted pottery. IMO this culture represents people that were linguistically and culturally very close to the proto Greek people, possibly the Bryges, that were later known as Phryges or Phrygians.

As for the samples from the first millennium BC:
Plaošnik, Ohrid: No Paeonians were ever recorded this west historically, nor archaeologically. The people of this site represent one entity with the people from the site of Trebenište where the famous golden masks were found. Possibly related the BA mat painted culture from South Albania and direct continuation from it hence IMO these were some Greekoid people. In the later phase the Illyrians conquered the area. In the historical accounts the tribes of Enchelei and Dessaratii are recorded there, neither of which were considered Paeonians.

Bucinci, Govrlevo, Vodovrati: likely Paeonians, although this area was very fluid and represented a border with the bearers of the Glasinac-Mati culture. "Macedonian Bronzes", distinctive future of the Paeonians and their culture dominate the area. It's only during the second half of the first millennium BCE that the Dardani expand here hence IMO these samples from before 500 BCE are Paeonians.

Gradsko, Lisičin Dol: Paeonians

Isar Marcinci: this site represents the ancient Idomenae which was an ancient Macedonian city founded by the ancient Macedonians after they conquered the area from the Paeonians. Although the cities of the ancient Macedonians were cosmopolitan and other people besides ancient Macedonians likely lived there, I don't think we can give these Hellenistic samples any other label apart from simply ancient Macedonian. One sample on the other hand was dated to the late Hellenistic/early Roman times and was very MENA like.

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks!

[Balkaniika]

Were the Paeonians just an illyrian branch or closely related who were under thracian influence? They were probably an R1b dominated people and the R1b-z2103 people seem to be the same as the illyrian or at least closely related since only J-L283 has been found alongside R-Z2103 and not E-v13. Also the people of IA north macedonia seem to be autosomally very similar to south illyrians which is to be expected but still considering their proximity to thracian and dacian tribes they were more similar to western balkan people. The originally Paeonian cities Bylazora, Scupi etc. dont have the usual thracian ending -para or -dava. Even their names such as Longarus which is not only Paeonian but also illyrian (Dardanian). Is it possible they most likely were an originally illyrian tribe?

[Aspar]

Were the Paeonians just an illyrian branch or closely related who were under thracian influence? They were probably an R1b dominated people and the R1b-z2103 people seem to be the same as the illyrian or at least closely related since only J-L283 has been found alongside R-Z2103 and not E-v13. Also the people of IA north macedonia seem to be autosomally very similar to south illyrians which is to be expected but still considering their proximity to thracian and dacian tribes they were more similar to western balkan people. The originally Paeonian cities Bylazora, Scupi etc. dont have the usual thracian ending -para or -dava. Even their names such as Longarus which is not only Paeonian but also illyrian (Dardanian). Is it possible they most likely were an originally illyrian tribe?

Simple answer is most likely no.

Most of the names and toponymy among the Paeonians have Greek parallels. Most names of their recorded Kings starting with Agis and so on, have very easily explainable Greek names. 
The Dardanians although mostly considered Illyrians in the historical sources, also had lots of influences that point to non Illyrian input. Therefore I want put more weight on Dardanian connection just because of one parallel. 

The Greek influence among the Paeonians could have come from the Bryges or Phrygians. Bryges were recorded as having lived in the lower Axios/Vardar valley, exactly where later in the IA we find Paeonians instead. I think Homerus in his Iliad also makes close connection between the two.

From the AI Google bot:
In Homer's epic poems, specifically the Iliad, the Paeonians and Phrygians are mentioned as allies of the Trojans, though their specific roles and relationships are not always clearly defined. The Paeonians are connected to the Phrygians in some accounts, suggesting a possible shared ancestry or cultural influence.
Paeonians:
Allies of Trojans: Homer mentions Paeonians fighting alongside the Trojans in the Iliad.
Possible Phrygian connection: Some scholars suggest that the Paeonians were a Phrygian migration or a related culture, perhaps with Illyrian and Thracian influences.
Herodotus' view: Herodotus describes the Paeonians as descendants of the Trojans.
Phrygians:
Allies of Trojans: The Phrygians are also mentioned in the Iliad as allies of the Trojans.
Origin and migrations: The Phrygians are thought to have migrated to Asia Minor from Europe.
Cultural connections: The Phrygians shared some cultural traits with the Thracians and are also associated with the Mysians.
Possible Paeonian connection: Some accounts suggest that the Paeonians were a branch or offshoot of the Phrygians, or at least had a close relationship with them.

Another issue for the Illyrian theory is the absence of the haplogroup J-L283 among the Paeonians albeit the sample size isn't great.

My opinion on the matter is that the Paeonians if not descendants of the Bryges then surely had lots of things in common with them. Archeologically during the BA we find related cultures along the lower and middle Axios/Vardar and this pretty much continued in the IA up to the beginning of the fifth century BCE when the area of the lower Axios/Vardar was conquered by Alexander I of Macedon.
The only interruption happens during the BA collapse when more northern groups start flooding the area. Thos coincides with the time when most of the Bryges migrated to Anatolia. Therefore, the Paeonians of the IA were likely the product of mixing between the BA Bryges and these invading northern groups. But then again, the northern groups in question were not Glasinac-Mati, the culture that is considered Illyrian.

[Balkaniika]

Were the Paeonians just an illyrian branch or closely related who were under thracian influence? They were probably an R1b dominated people and the R1b-z2103 people seem to be the same as the illyrian or at least closely related since only J-L283 has been found alongside R-Z2103 and not E-v13. Also the people of IA north macedonia seem to be autosomally very similar to south illyrians which is to be expected but still considering their proximity to thracian and dacian tribes they were more similar to western balkan people. The originally Paeonian cities Bylazora, Scupi etc. dont have the usual thracian ending -para or -dava. Even their names such as Longarus which is not only Paeonian but also illyrian (Dardanian). Is it possible they most likely were an originally illyrian tribe?

Simple answer is most likely no.

Most of the names and toponymy among the Paeonians have Greek parallels. Most names of their recorded Kings starting with Agis and so on, have very easily explainable Greek names. 
The Dardanians although mostly considered Illyrians in the historical sources, also had lots of influences that point to non Illyrian input. Therefore I want put more weight on Dardanian connection just because of one parallel. 

The Greek influence among the Paeonians could have come from the Bryges or Phrygians. Bryges were recorded as having lived in the lower Axios/Vardar valley, exactly where later in the IA we find Paeonians instead. I think Homerus in his Iliad also makes close connection between the two.

From the AI Google bot:
In Homer's epic poems, specifically the Iliad, the Paeonians and Phrygians are mentioned as allies of the Trojans, though their specific roles and relationships are not always clearly defined. The Paeonians are connected to the Phrygians in some accounts, suggesting a possible shared ancestry or cultural influence.
Paeonians:
Allies of Trojans: Homer mentions Paeonians fighting alongside the Trojans in the Iliad.
Possible Phrygian connection: Some scholars suggest that the Paeonians were a Phrygian migration or a related culture, perhaps with Illyrian and Thracian influences.
Herodotus' view: Herodotus describes the Paeonians as descendants of the Trojans.
Phrygians:
Allies of Trojans: The Phrygians are also mentioned in the Iliad as allies of the Trojans.
Origin and migrations: The Phrygians are thought to have migrated to Asia Minor from Europe.
Cultural connections: The Phrygians shared some cultural traits with the Thracians and are also associated with the Mysians.
Possible Paeonian connection: Some accounts suggest that the Paeonians were a branch or offshoot of the Phrygians, or at least had a close relationship with them.

Another issue for the Illyrian theory is the absence of the haplogroup J-L283 among the Paeonians albeit the sample size isn't great.

My opinion on the matter is that the Paeonians if not descendants of the Bryges then surely had lots of things in common with them. Archeologically during the BA we find related cultures along the lower and middle Axios/Vardar and this pretty much continued in the IA up to the beginning of the fifth century BCE when the area of the lower Axios/Vardar was conquered by Alexander I of Macedon.
The only interpretation happens during the BA collapse when more northern groups start flooding the area. Thos coincides with the time when most of the Bryges migrated to Anatolia. Therefore, the Paeonians of the IA were likely the product of mixing between the BA Bryges and these invading northern groups. But then again, the northern groups in question were not Glasinac-Mati, the culture that is considered Illyrian.

Interesting! So who do you think these northern groups were if not illyrian?