The GenArchivist Forum

Thought I would start something in this subforum by posting a basic Q-M242 Descendant Tree. It's not much, but it is only meant to show the basics. One thing that really intrigues me about Q-M242 is that it is a brother clade to my own R-M207 under P-P226 and shows up along with R-M207 in the Ancient North Eurasians. That is also intriguing because Q-M242 is the most frequent Y-DNA haplogroup among Native Americans (i.e., "First Nations", "Amerindians"), while R-M207 is the most frequent Y-DNA haplogroup among Europeans.

Interesting that the subclade of Robert Trujillo, bassist of the heavy metal band, Metallica, is Q-L400, which is downstream of Q-L53, under Q-MEH2>M346.

I'm guessing that is an Amerindian branch, but I'm only guessing. The whole Q-M242 tree is a learning experience for me.

In Ancient Connections,  Q-MEH2 appears to be mainly an Amerindian branch, yet Vasilevka 501, 8784-8560 BC, who was Q-M346, downstream of Q-MEH2 (Q-MEH2>M346), was Eastern European and found at Vasilevka in the Dnieper Valley in Ukraine. He also belonged to mtDNA haplogroup U5a2, which is European (I myself am U5a2c3a). 

I don't know if this is helpful at all in addition to the tree in my first post, but here goes.

Sorry to keep blabbing, but Q-M242 is really a kind of new experience for me. I knew it was there and knew some basics about it, but I never really looked at it closely at all or thought much about it. If you Q guys show up, feel free to correct me where I go wrong.

Anyway, my initial impression is the Q-MEH2 branch is the New World/Amerindian branch, with some Old World remnants. The other branch under Q-M242, Q-L275, is the branch that remained in the Old World.

Am I mistaken?

The history of Q and R appear intertwined much past their TMRCA, but I think the branching of Q is much more complicated compared to R.
Q-L53 is overwhelmingly new world except one backmigration(?) of Q-YP4010
Then you have a compltely different branch Q-NGQ11, held by ranks as diverse as AfontovaGora2, Kolyma, Karelian_HG, and Inuit.
With the plethora of aDNA that's come out of Siberia, I really hope we get more late paleolithic stuff to help clarify the break-up of ANE.

(01-06-2024, 05:26 AM)Kale Wrote: [ -> ]The history of Q and R appear intertwined much past their TMRCA, but I think the branching of Q is much more complicated compared to R.
Q-L53 is overwhelmingly new world except one backmigration(?) of Q-YP4010
Then you have a compltely different branch Q-NGQ11, held by ranks as diverse as AfontovaGora2, Kolyma, Karelian_HG, and Inuit.
With the plethora of aDNA that's come out of Siberia, I really hope we get more late paleolithic stuff to help clarify the break-up of ANE.

Thanks! It's really incredibly fascinating, and so few people realize the relationship - however remote - of Europeans and Native Americans.

(01-06-2024, 05:32 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-06-2024, 05:26 AM)Kale Wrote: [ -> ]The history of Q and R appear intertwined much past their TMRCA, but I think the branching of Q is much more complicated compared to R.
Q-L53 is overwhelmingly new world except one backmigration(?) of Q-YP4010
Then you have a compltely different branch Q-NGQ11, held by ranks as diverse as AfontovaGora2, Kolyma, Karelian_HG, and Inuit.
With the plethora of aDNA that's come out of Siberia, I really hope we get more late paleolithic stuff to help clarify the break-up of ANE.

Thanks! It's really incredibly fascinating, and so few people realize the relationship - however remote - of Europeans and Native Americans.

You know, I almost missed the import of what you wrote about Q-NGQ11, but then I took another look at it and saw that it is downstream of Q-MEH2>F1096. That is really interesting!

It's also interesting to compare the yfull equivalent of the MEH2 tree, which is Q-L472
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L472/

One hugely important difference I see is the placement of AG2. Yfull has him ~5,000 years upstream of where FtDNA does. Yfull unfortunately does not have the Karelian HG on there from what I can see though.

Speaking again of AG2, what do the dotted lines leading to the sample mean on FtDNA?

(01-06-2024, 05:52 AM)Kale Wrote: [ -> ]It's also interesting to compare the yfull equivalent of the MEH2 tree, which is Q-L472
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L472/

One hugely important difference I see is the placement of AG2. Yfull has him ~5,000 years upstream of where FtDNA does. Yfull unfortunately does not have the Karelian HG on there from what I can see though.

Speaking again of AG2, what do the dotted lines leading to the sample mean on FtDNA?

I don't know for sure, but it looks like it might have something to do with AG2 being older than their TMRCA for Q-NGQ11, which is kind of weird.

Also remember to click on some of the downstream branches while exploring, there's too much branching to display it all on the Q-MEH2 page! I'll have to dig around that more tomorrow. Very interesting.

Is there a specific program you use to make those descendent trees?

(01-06-2024, 04:24 PM)Kale Wrote: [ -> ]Is there a specific program you use to make those descendent trees?

No. I'm embarrassed to say it, but I just rough them out using Paint. I need to get a good software program, but I kind of enjoy the labor of using Paint. It kind of forces me to learn the material, too. I'm not just plugging things into a program and watching results get spit out.

Anyway, this Q stuff is kind of fun. Here's another one, this time from Afanasievo, which strikes me as a somewhat diverse steppe pastoralist IE culture. This is a screen shot of the page for Nileke 3N, a Q-F2235 (Q-L275>NGQ1>F2235), 3005-2987 BC. Refer to the tree in the first post in this thread. Nileke County is in Xinjiang, China.

(01-07-2024, 01:54 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-06-2024, 04:24 PM)Kale Wrote: [ -> ]Is there a specific program you use to make those descendent trees?

No. I'm embarrassed to say it, but I just rough them out using Paint. I need to get a good software program, but I kind of enjoy the labor of using Paint. It kind of forces me to learn the material, too. I'm not just plugging things into a program and watching results get spit out.

I was afraid you were going to say that.... But I respect that spirit! Haha
Anyways, if something can't be done in excel, it's not worth doing!
The Q tree at FtDNA is a lot to take in, so I've condensed it down to what should be all of the major branching events with the FtDNA branch name and yfull branch name
e.g.
Q-FtDna/Yfull
TMRCA
Significant sample

[attachment=483]