J2b-L283

[Wanderer1]

I don't understand the fetish for these way-too-late Sardinian samples. We've seen steppe lineages get reduced in steppe ancestry even in Anatolia in this paper, where we have steppe I2, but no steppe ancestry. We see RZ2103s with no steppe ancestry even in the Middle East.

Steppe ancestry behind steppe Y-DNA got diluted more and more going into southern Europe. Sardinia even today is a huge EEF holdout. These samples are way too late, and not archaic/basal enough, to have any meaningful insight into the origin of this lineage. We have 4000 BC pre-Yamnaya samples ffs. What is there more to argue?

Its because theres a lack of diversity of Z622 and basal level lineages of J-L283 outside of Sardinia/ tyrrhenian area which is still puzzling. But the evidence of Older basal J-L283 outside of Sardinia does suggest that Z622 and basal Lineages werent locked to Sardinia / tyrrhenian only at the very least. Something happened to these lineages outside of Sardinia to go nearly extinct. Ones in Sardnia Survived better.

[targaryen]

I don't understand the fetish for these way-too-late Sardinian samples. We've seen steppe lineages get reduced in steppe ancestry even in Anatolia in this paper, where we have steppe I2, but no steppe ancestry. We see RZ2103s with no steppe ancestry even in the Middle East.

Steppe ancestry behind steppe Y-DNA got diluted more and more going into southern Europe. Sardinia even today is a huge EEF holdout. These samples are way too late, and not archaic/basal enough, to have any meaningful insight into the origin of this lineage. We have 4000 BC pre-Yamnaya samples ffs. What is there more to argue?

Its because theres a lack of diversity of Z622 and basal level lineages of J-L283 outside of Sardinia/ tyrrhenian area which is still puzzling. But the evidence of Older basal J-L283 outside of Sardinia does suggest that Z622 and basal Lineages werent locked to Sardinia / tyrrhenian only at the very least. Something happened to these lineages outside of Sardinia to go nearly extinct. Ones in Sardnia Survived better.

Cause this is a minor lineage. Nothing interesting there. The most basal lineages are around the Caucasus. 1 aDNA in southern Russia, and 1 modern Armenian. J2B2-L283 was a CHG lineage in Yamnaya.



I'd say even the Hungarian ones are Yamnaya derived, since Hungary has the most kurgan sites anywhere in Europe outside out of the steppe.

[corrigendum]

Something happened to these lineages outside of Sardinia to go nearly extinct. Ones in Sardnia Survived better.

It's quite common for some branches which enter geographically isolated areas or endogamous populations to be preserved in these areas/populations although they eventually cease to exist in the areas they came from. Under R-PF7563>Z29758, which has been found in BA Albania, there is a small branch which today (V3286) exists in Sardinia but hasn't been found in the Balkans, but this doesn't change the bigger picture: there is no Tyrrhenian diversity for PF7563, just a minor branch which found its way in an insular environment. This is what the LBA Sardinian J-L283 represent as within Italy J-L283 presence is unambiguously concentrated in specific Adriatic regions as opposed to the Tyrrhenian coast.

If we focus on the archaeological spread of Cetina culture, then we should expect much earlier J-L283 than the samples from Sardinia in places like Malta, Sicily and the Lipari Islands and the LBA Tunisian coast. In these areas, we might find even "rarer" branches which don't exist today, but this wouldn't mean that J-L283 diversity is concentrated in the south-central Mediterranean.

[Polska]

These J2b L283 Yamnaya samples from Moldova (Crihana Veche and Constantinovca) are very likely related to the “Budzhak” or “Budjak” Yamnaya from the Budzhak steppe of western Ukraine and Moldova.  Budzhak Yamnaya are dated to about 3100-2200 BCE.  It was from this western steppe region that the Yamnaya moved directly into the Balkans. 

A couple excellent articles from Ukrainian researcher Svitlana Ivanova on the Budzhak Yamnaya:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...nd_aspeCts
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[url=https://www.academia.edu/37259536/THE_INGUL_DONETS_EARLY_BRONZE_CIVILIZATION_AS_SPRINGBOARD_FOR_TRANSMISSION_OF_PONTIC_CULTURAL_PATTERNS_TO_THE_BALTIC_DRAINAGE_BASIN_3200_1750_BC]https://www.academia.edu/37259536/THE_INGUL_DONETS_EARLY_BRONZE_CIVILIZATION_AS_SPRINGBOARD_FOR_TRANSMISSION_OF_PONTIC_CULTURAL_PATTERNS_TO_THE_BALTIC_DRAINAGE_BASIN_3200_1750_BC
  

Map of Contanstinovca Kurgan location on border of Moldova and Ukraine:

   

Updated map from Trojet with the recent ancient samples from Moldova, Greece, and Italy:


https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid...271305&z=3


   


User ArchetypeOne has pointed out that sample CGG_2_103753 is a twin or duplicate of the published CGG_2_103750 (J2b L283 Z597) sample.  They are burials 6 and 8, respectively, from the same kurgan.  So this might mean that these are twin brothers.


   

   

[Archetype0ne]

Took a shot at making a L283 gif... feedback appreciated.

[Wanderer1]

Merry Xmas. Ho ho ho

[Kelmendasi]

A new and insightful article from Arbëria on the language of the Cetina culture, a culture which we know from the archaeogenetic record played an important role in the spread of J2b-Z615 (particularly Z615>Z597 lineages such as J2b-Z38240) subclades in the Balkans and across the Adriatic. Drawing on the archaeological and genetic data, showcasing clear parallels with the Iapygians of ancient south-eastern Italy, the article concludes that the core bearers of the Cetina culture must have spoken an idiom which diverged from the same linguistic ancestor as Messapic sometime after the EBA - placing it in a broader "Illyro-Messapic" group.

Some extracts: 

The common thread in all studies is the finding of J-L283»Z615 and R-Z2103 found both in Daunians and Picentes. Low DNA coverage of the samples didn’t allow for a more precise determination of their phylogeny. Some details, however, are observable in the new samples. Some Picentine samples had as high coverage as Z615>Z597, a branch which stems from a common ancestor who lived around 2500 BCE at the start of the first phase of Cetina expansion. He is the common ancestor of Z597+ found in Cetina, Montenegro (Velika Gruda), Albania (Shkrel), Italy, Greece (Mygdalia). A sample of higher coverage from the area of Cetina expansion to the north of the Picenes has an exact match with Z597»Y15058>Z38240 in the Cetina valley. It’s likely that if the Picentine samples had higher coverage, they would be Y15058>Z38240, although Z597»Z1295>Y21878 can’t be excluded. As a descendant branch of Z597, Y21878 in ancient samples connects a Peucetian or Daunian from central Apulia, Cetina culture descendants from Velika Gruda and an Iron Age Illyrian from Çinamak, northern Albania. R-Z2103 have low coverage overall, but a Picentine from Novilara was determined Z2103»CTS1450, which connects him to an Illyrian from IA Çinamak who is CTS1450. Genetically, Cetina culture and its descendants form a broad network of many patrilineages which connect the languages known in the Iron Age as Illyrian in the western Balkans and Messapic or Iapygian in Apulia. The ancestors of Cetina culture, Iron Age Illyrians and Iron Age Iapygians are the same group which lived in the western Balkans in the Early Bronze Age. Although distinct, IA Illyrian and IA Messapic are part of the same broader grouping. While there is very little evidence for Illyrian, hundreds of Messapic inscriptions have been found. The closest living language to Messapic is considered to be Albanian, which is part of the same Illyro-Messapic grouping.

In conclusion, Cetina culture spoke a language which belonged to the Illyro-Messapic group and its core speakers were descendants of the same group as Illyrians and Iapygians in the western Balkans in the Early Bronze Age. The closest language to Cetina about which sufficient linguistic evidence has been found is Messapic in Apulia. Some linguists have suggested a direct spread of Messapic with late Cetina in Italy. The closest living language to Messapic is Albanian.

[targaryen]

Speaking of Cinamak, didn't one of the samples have some super high IBD sharing with someone in Martinsicuro, just north of Messapic territory? They could have been distant family. It was that noticeable.

[Polska]

A new and insightful article from Arbëria on the language of the Cetina culture, a culture which we know from the archaeogenetic record played an important role in the spread of J2b-Z615 (particularly Z615>Z597 lineages such as J2b-Z38240) subclades in the Balkans and across the Adriatic. Drawing on the archaeological and genetic data, showcasing clear parallels with the Iapygians of ancient south-eastern Italy, the article concludes that the core bearers of the Cetina culture must have spoken an idiom which diverged from the same linguistic ancestor as Messapic sometime after the EBA - placing it in a broader "Illyro-Messapic" group.

Some extracts: 

The common thread in all studies is the finding of J-L283»Z615 and R-Z2103 found both in Daunians and Picentes. Low DNA coverage of the samples didn’t allow for a more precise determination of their phylogeny. Some details, however, are observable in the new samples. Some Picentine samples had as high coverage as Z615>Z597, a branch which stems from a common ancestor who lived around 2500 BCE at the start of the first phase of Cetina expansion. He is the common ancestor of Z597+ found in Cetina, Montenegro (Velika Gruda), Albania (Shkrel), Italy, Greece (Mygdalia). A sample of higher coverage from the area of Cetina expansion to the north of the Picenes has an exact match with Z597»Y15058>Z38240 in the Cetina valley. It’s likely that if the Picentine samples had higher coverage, they would be Y15058>Z38240, although Z597»Z1295>Y21878 can’t be excluded. As a descendant branch of Z597, Y21878 in ancient samples connects a Peucetian or Daunian from central Apulia, Cetina culture descendants from Velika Gruda and an Iron Age Illyrian from Çinamak, northern Albania. R-Z2103 have low coverage overall, but a Picentine from Novilara was determined Z2103»CTS1450, which connects him to an Illyrian from IA Çinamak who is CTS1450. Genetically, Cetina culture and its descendants form a broad network of many patrilineages which connect the languages known in the Iron Age as Illyrian in the western Balkans and Messapic or Iapygian in Apulia. The ancestors of Cetina culture, Iron Age Illyrians and Iron Age Iapygians are the same group which lived in the western Balkans in the Early Bronze Age. Although distinct, IA Illyrian and IA Messapic are part of the same broader grouping. While there is very little evidence for Illyrian, hundreds of Messapic inscriptions have been found. The closest living language to Messapic is considered to be Albanian, which is part of the same Illyro-Messapic grouping.

In conclusion, Cetina culture spoke a language which belonged to the Illyro-Messapic group and its core speakers were descendants of the same group as Illyrians and Iapygians in the western Balkans in the Early Bronze Age. The closest language to Cetina about which sufficient linguistic evidence has been found is Messapic in Apulia. Some linguists have suggested a direct spread of Messapic with late Cetina in Italy. The closest living language to Messapic is Albanian.

This is a great article from Arberia.  I was just reading “Europe at the Dawn of the Bronze Age” by Volker Heyd just a few days ago.  When one reads Heyd, it’s impossible to not see the obvious connections between J2b L283 and the various groups in the “Circum Agaean” trade network.  In “Europe at the Dawn of the Bronze Age”, Heyd even mentions a find from a site in Sardinia (Bingia ‘e Monti) with archaeological ties to both Cemenci in Montenegro and Steno/Leukas in Greece.  Cemenci and Steno, among others, are also mentioned in Arberia’s intro paragraph relating to the Vucedol complex and its Ljubljana/Adriatic variant.

From the Heyd article:

   

   

Distance between Bingia ‘e Monti and Perdasdefogu, Sardinia (Nuragic J2b L283):

   

[corrigendum]

Speaking of Cinamak, didn't one of the samples have some super high IBD sharing with someone in Martinsicuro, just north of Messapic territory? They could have been distant family. It was that noticeable.

I14690 from Çinamak and R1 from Martinsicuro share ~50 cM (equivalent to being 3rd or 4th cousins). Martinsicuro should be within Picene territory. R1's profile is just west Balkan, so she could even be from the eastern Adriatic and not necessarily Picene or Daunian.

[targaryen]

Speaking of Cinamak, didn't one of the samples have some super high IBD sharing with someone in Martinsicuro, just north of Messapic territory? They could have been distant family. It was that noticeable.

I14690 from Çinamak and R1 from Martinsicuro share ~50 cM (equivalent to being 3rd or 4th cousins). Martinsicuro should be within Picene territory. R1's profile is just west Balkan, so she could even be from the eastern Adriatic and not necessarily Picene or Daunian.

Yeah 50 cm is A LOT for archeogenetics purposes. It means this migration took place ~ a few decades.

[Wanderer1]

I am not into Genetic Modeling or any of that sort. But I do agree that the Tyrehnnian Cluster is highly diversve at a basal level more so then Cetina Culture which is strange.
I think that Maybe some J-L283 was absorbed by Ligurians or proto ligurians which could explain the oddity of my clade being closer to Italian Clades and Sardinian. More specifically ORC08 Sample. Than any of the other Ancient Samples besides possibly the Core Yamnaya one?

On ftdna it says my branch of J-L283 branched off 3200 BC. But J-Y260401 on Y full branches off 3900  YBP which is about 1900 BC. With  Italian in that clade in Massa Carrerra which is in Etruscan Territory also and close to Ligurian territory. Then there an Englishmen Branches off from him or is within the same clade. I Believe Ligurians had some contact with Sardinians which could explain why there is also many Basal samples left in Sardinia but also near Tyrrhennia. Ligurians have extended as far as North western Iberia. Could explain why my Clade is such an oddity. The englishman is clearly connected with Tyrrhenians even though Its not definitive because they are both modern. Because the surrounding diversity is Tyrrhennian and Sardinian. The Spanish have also conquered Sardinia before so I wouldnt even know if my clade came from Sardinia recently into spain and then migrated to the dominican republic.

Ligurians have extended as far as north western Iberia

And Ligurians are also connected with Sardinia and Corsica I  believe
Normans Have invaded Italy but also there have been Iberian and British isile exchanges very likely. Especially with the trade routes involving some metals at the bronze age

[slamberty]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adq5864

New J-Y23094 sample from around 850 AD-AHS32

[corrigendum]

The maritime Phoenician civilization from the Levant transformed the entire Mediterranean during the first millennium BCE. However, the extent of human movement between the Levantine Phoenician homeland and Phoenician-Punic settlements in the central and western Mediterranean has been unclear in the absence of comprehensive ancient DNA studies. We generated genome-wide data for 210 individuals, including 196 from 14 sites traditionally identified as Phoenician and Punic in the Levant, North Africa, Iberia, Sicily, Sardinia, and Ibiza, and an early Iron Age individual from Algeria. Levantine Phoenicians made little genetic contribution to people living in Punic settlements in the central and western Mediterranean between the 6th and 2nd centuries BCE, despite abundant archaeological evidence of strong cultural, historical, linguistic, and religious links. Instead, these inheritors of Levantine Phoenician culture derived most of their ancestry from populations with a genetic profile similar to that of Sicily and the Aegean. Much of the remaining ancestry originated from North Africa, reflecting the growing influence of Carthage; however, this was a minority contributor of ancestry in all sampled sites, including in Carthage itself. Different Punic sites across the central and western Mediterranean show similar patterns of high genetic diversity. We also detect genetic relationships across the Mediterranean, reflecting shared demographic processes shaping populations around the Punic world.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB86313

Two new J-L283 samples:

I4798 Italy_Sicily_Punic_Early Italy M J-Z590 J2b2a1a~ I6
I24671 Italy_Sicily_Roman Italy M J-Z631 J2b2a1a1a1a1a1a H13a1a1

I4798 has a mostly Punic-related profile similar to some of the Kerkouane J-L283, while I24671 has a Balkan Illyrian profile. This would suggest that I24671 was a newcomer from the Balkans in Roman Sicily.

Some of the earliest J-L283 in the southern central Mediterranean region may date to the era of the Tarxien Cemetery phase which was in contact with Cetina culture.

[Sephesakueu]

There are also 2 J-L283 from Tunisia, one of them:

Target: Tunisia_I35342
Distance: 3.3725% / 0.03372468
47.2 Anatolian_Farmers
21.6 Yamnaya
19.2 Levantine_farmers
8.2 Iran_farmers
2.0 Yoruba
1.8 Iberomaurusian

I35342 Tunisia 144 142 J-L283(3/3)
I35342,0.079676,0.150298,-0.000377,-0.053295,0.020004,-0.025379,-0.00188,-0.005538,0.021884,0.026424,-0.001299,0.014387,-0.008474,-0.013074,-0.008415,0.004641,0.027772,-0.002407,0.003394,-0.005378,-0.007237,-0.00272,-0.004437,0.001928,0.006586
I24032 Tunisia 716 712 J-Z597(3/3)
I24032,0.0087,0.0157,0.0026,-0.0158,0.0123,-0.0077,-0.0034,-0.0008,0.0132,0.0183,0.0019,0.0056,-0.0082,-0.0089,-0.0019,0.0017,0.0049,-0.0013,-0.0064,-0.0057,-0.0031,-0.0026,0.009,-0.0106,-0.0123

The other cordenate is giving quite a bad distance.