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Q-M242 and Subclades
#31
(01-09-2024, 03:44 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote: Thought I should mention, while I am thinking of it and before I forget, that sample DRO001, from the 2021 Papac et al paper, "Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Europe", was Q-SK1932.

He had 81.5% steppe DNA (Yamnaya_Samara) and was one of only two non-R1 members of Papac et al's Bohemia_CW_Early group (the other was I-L460). He was an early Bohemian Corded Ware guy dated to 2872-2633 calBC.

Interestingly, that's downstream of M346 (Q-M242>MEH2>M346>Y4800>SK1932).

Maybe I should have put DRO001 in the "Famous Q-M242 Persons" thread? 

Aha! I found him in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections with a more refined haplogroup: Q-FT380500 (Q-M242> >MEH2>M346>Y4800>SK1932>Y6846>YP6185>Y147687>FT380500).

In Ancient Connections he's called "Droužkovice 1", dated 2872 - 2633 BC (same date given above).
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#32
Very interesting because those estimates would put the American migration quite presicely around 12000 BC. It also looks like a lot of other Q was part of that source population or somewhere nearby, including the European lines. So was it a separate ANE migration to Europe from R?
R1a's branching is consistent with it being from the same migration and it's also found at the same sites as some Q, maybe even most of R1b would work (L389/P297/M269?), but the Villabruna/IronGates branch is a few thousand years earlier and also has a different distribution.
Was it an earlier, more southern route? A whole different population? Or maybe the datings are a bit off, and Villabruna is also from around 12000 BC so could be just a pioneer from the same migration?
(Also, which one spoke Proto-Indo-European...)
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#33
(01-13-2024, 09:15 PM)kolompar Wrote: Very interesting because those estimates would put the American migration quite presicely around 12000 BC. It also looks like a lot of other Q was part of that source population or somewhere nearby, including the European lines. So was it a separate ANE migration to Europe from R?
R1a's branching is consistent with it being from the same migration and it's also found at the same sites as some Q, maybe even most of R1b would work (L389/P297/M269?), but the Villabruna/IronGates branch is a few thousand years earlier and also has a different distribution.
Was it an earlier, more southern route? A whole different population? Or maybe the datings are a bit off, and Villabruna is also from around 12000 BC so could be just a pioneer from the same migration?
(Also, which one spoke Proto-Indo-European...)

Villabruna is dated 12,268-11,851 BC, midpoint 12,059 BC, so he is from around 12,000 BC, and he had ANE DNA. 

According to Kale in this post, those Iron Gates HGs were about 20% ANE.
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#34
Where are our Q members? We should have some of them contributing to this subforum - taking it over, really. 

Come on, guys! Don't leave it to your old ANE haplogroup R relatives!
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#35
(01-14-2024, 12:48 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote:
(01-13-2024, 09:15 PM)kolompar Wrote: Very interesting because those estimates would put the American migration quite presicely around 12000 BC. It also looks like a lot of other Q was part of that source population or somewhere nearby, including the European lines. So was it a separate ANE migration to Europe from R?
R1a's branching is consistent with it being from the same migration and it's also found at the same sites as some Q, maybe even most of R1b would work (L389/P297/M269?), but the Villabruna/IronGates branch is a few thousand years earlier and also has a different distribution.
Was it an earlier, more southern route? A whole different population? Or maybe the datings are a bit off, and Villabruna is also from around 12000 BC so could be just a pioneer from the same migration?
(Also, which one spoke Proto-Indo-European...)

Villabruna is dated 12,268-11,851 BC, midpoint 12,059 BC, so he is from around 12,000 BC, and he had ANE DNA. 

According to Kale in this post, those Iron Gates HGs were about 20% ANE.

The oldest sites of Human habitation in the Americas based on carbon dating(Book of Mormon not withstanding) are older than these dates sometimes considerably. Q-M242 exixts in Europe as well.' In Northern Europe, haplogroup Q comprises about 2.5% of males. According to the Swedish Haplogroup Database, 4.1% (27/664, as of Jan 2016) of Swedish males belong to Q-M242. About 2/3 of the samples analyzed subclades in detail belong to Q1a2b-F1161/L527 and about 1/3 are in Q1a2a-L804. By county, they are distributed intensively in the southern region (Götaland,: not to be confused with Gotland), and rarely to the north. If recalculated by county-population weights, the frequency of Q in Sweden reaches 4.7%."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242' This indicates a back migration. Maybe from Beringia?
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#36
(01-21-2024, 12:24 AM)Uintah106 Wrote:
(01-14-2024, 12:48 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote:
(01-13-2024, 09:15 PM)kolompar Wrote: Very interesting because those estimates would put the American migration quite presicely around 12000 BC. It also looks like a lot of other Q was part of that source population or somewhere nearby, including the European lines. So was it a separate ANE migration to Europe from R?
R1a's branching is consistent with it being from the same migration and it's also found at the same sites as some Q, maybe even most of R1b would work (L389/P297/M269?), but the Villabruna/IronGates branch is a few thousand years earlier and also has a different distribution.
Was it an earlier, more southern route? A whole different population? Or maybe the datings are a bit off, and Villabruna is also from around 12000 BC so could be just a pioneer from the same migration?
(Also, which one spoke Proto-Indo-European...)

Villabruna is dated 12,268-11,851 BC, midpoint 12,059 BC, so he is from around 12,000 BC, and he had ANE DNA. 

According to Kale in this post, those Iron Gates HGs were about 20% ANE.

The oldest sites of Human habitation in the Americas based on carbon dating(Book of Mormon not withstanding) are older than these dates sometimes considerably. Q-M242 exixts in Europe as well.' In Northern Europe, haplogroup Q comprises about 2.5% of males. According to the Swedish Haplogroup Database, 4.1% (27/664, as of Jan 2016) of Swedish males belong to Q-M242. About 2/3 of the samples analyzed subclades in detail belong to Q1a2b-F1161/L527 and about 1/3 are in Q1a2a-L804. By county, they are distributed intensively in the southern region (Götaland,: not to be confused with Gotland), and rarely to the north. If recalculated by county-population weights, the frequency of Q in Sweden reaches 4.7%."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242' This indicates a back migration. Maybe from Beringia?

And this ' In 2000 the research group at Oxford University headed by Dr. Agnar Helgason first discovered the haplotype that was much later to become known as Q-L804. In 2000 the strange haplotype was called “branch-A” (i.e. R1b-branch A) and it was found uniquely on Iceland and Scandinavia.[2] Later studies completed the genetic bridge by determining that Q-L804 is related to Q-M242 populations of Native Americans, Turkmen (Q-M3) and Siberian populations of the Selkup and Ket people (Q-L54*xM3).[3] [4]
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#37
So, where are our Q guys or guys who have Q in their maternal Y-DNA lines? You need to be posting here.

It's a cool haplogroup, one that I wouldn't mind at all if it was my own (is it okay to say stuff like that?).
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#38
(01-21-2024, 12:24 AM)Uintah106 Wrote: The oldest sites of Human habitation in the Americas based on carbon dating(Book of Mormon not withstanding) are older than these dates sometimes considerably. Q-M242 exixts in Europe as well.' In Northern Europe, haplogroup Q comprises about 2.5% of males. According to the Swedish Haplogroup Database, 4.1% (27/664, as of Jan 2016) of Swedish males belong to Q-M242. About 2/3 of the samples analyzed subclades in detail belong to Q1a2b-F1161/L527 and about 1/3 are in Q1a2a-L804. By county, they are distributed intensively in the southern region (Götaland,: not to be confused with Gotland), and rarely to the north. If recalculated by county-population weights, the frequency of Q in Sweden reaches 4.7%."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242' This indicates a back migration. Maybe from Beringia?

What do you mean by considerably older? I could see the haplogroup estimations being off by a thousand years or two. But as mentioned before, Indigenous Americans descend from just to branches that each have a TMRCA around 11k BC, and together 13k BC but with the EHG Q-L804 between them. It could be a back migration but it doesn't have to be.
And there's also C-BY63635 which again splits from Eurasian lines at 13k BC and has a TMRCA of 11k BC
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...3635/story
C-P39 and other Q lines are later Eurasian migrations.
And these are the mt-haplogroups
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/A2/ - no accurate dating, ancestor TMRCA 19000 ybp with several Eurasian branches
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/B2/ - TMRCA 13700 ybp
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/C1/ - TMRCA 15600 ybp, with 4 American branches and two Eurasian
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/D1/ - TMRCA 17200 ybp 
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/X2a/ - formed >20000 ybp, TMRCA 6400 ybp but ancestor formed 11800 ybp
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#39
(01-10-2024, 10:24 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote:
(01-09-2024, 03:44 AM)rmstevens2 Wrote: Thought I should mention, while I am thinking of it and before I forget, that sample DRO001, from the 2021 Papac et al paper, "Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Europe", was Q-SK1932.

He had 81.5% steppe DNA (Yamnaya_Samara) and was one of only two non-R1 members of Papac et al's Bohemia_CW_Early group (the other was I-L460). He was an early Bohemian Corded Ware guy dated to 2872-2633 calBC.

Interestingly, that's downstream of M346 (Q-M242>MEH2>M346>Y4800>SK1932).

Maybe I should have put DRO001 in the "Famous Q-M242 Persons" thread? 

Aha! I found him in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections with a more refined haplogroup: Q-FT380500 (Q-M242> >MEH2>M346>Y4800>SK1932>Y6846>YP6185>Y147687>FT380500).

In Ancient Connections he's called "Droužkovice 1", dated 2872 - 2633 BC (same date given above).

Also:
Saint Petersburg 48 was a man who lived between 2878 - 2636 BCE during the Central Asia Bronze Age and was found in the region now known as Yenisey River bank of Karasuk, Altai Mountains, Russian Federation.
He was associated with the Afanasievo Karasuk cultural group.


Yenisey 47 was a man who lived between 2837 - 2498 BCE during the Early Bronze Age and was found in the region now known as Yenisey River, Altai Mountains, Russian Federation.
He was associated with the Bronze Age Central Asia cultural group.


Saint Petersburg 49 was a man who lived between 2617 - 2472 BCE during the Central Asia Bronze Age and was found in the region now known as Yenisey River bank of Karasuk tributary, Altai Mountains, Russian Federation.
He was associated with the Afanasievo Karasuk cultural group.
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#40
I haven't seen the Q results of the new big Indo-European study discussed here, so I think it is worth posting:

So chronologically first we see Q-M930, direct ancestor of Norse Q-L804 (and also Native American M3 !) in the Middle Volga area:
I6910 8341 Labazy Russia U4a1 Q-M930 Q1b1a
I3546 7363 Ekaterinovka Russia U5a1+@16192 Q-L53 Q1b1
I8287 7306 Ekaterinovka Russia U5a1 Q-M1107 Q1b1a
I8286 7264 Ekaterinovka Russia U4a1 Q-M930 Q1b1a
I8282 7215 Ekaterinovka Russia U5a1 Q-M930 Q1b1a
I23651 7200 Ekaterinovka Russia U4a Q-M930 Q1b1a

It is clear that all of them had local EHG wives, so they were either part of an early EHG migration from Lake Baykal (ANE) 15 kya (https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-M930/) or a later immigrant wave but already admixed with EHG by 8400 BP.
So actually the Scandinavian Q-L804 people today are the only living descendants of an early Samara culture population, but they have a TMRCA of 3200 yBP per Yfull, so we cannot account for their place of habitation for exact 4000 years.
FTDNA Discover has 3 other Q-L804 samples:
Yuzhnyy 33 was a man who lived between 6362 - 6176 BCE during the Late Mesolithic Age and was found in the region now known as Yuzhniy Oleni Ostrov, Onega Lake, Russia (Republic of Karelia). He was associated with the Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherer cultural group. Reference: UOO033 from Posth et al. 2023
Sakhtish 185 was a 50-55 year old man who lived between 5209 - 4947 BCE during the Lyalovo Age and was found in the region now known as Sakhtish IIa, Ivanovo oblast, Russian Federation. He was associated with the Samara cultural group. His direct maternal line belonged to mtDNA haplogroup U4a1. Reference: NEO185 from Allentoft et al. 2024
Berendeyevo 1 was a 55-60 year old older man who lived between 4447 - 4259 BCE during the Middle Neolithic Age and was found in the region now known as Berendeyevo, Yaroslavl, Russian Federation. He was associated with the Volosovo cultural group. His direct maternal line belonged to mtDNA haplogroup K1-T16362C. Reference: BER001 from Saag et al. 2021

Interestingly, in Khvalynsk Eneolithic we still find Hg Q but from another branch, Q-M25 (xL712)
I6299 7028 Russia_Khvalynsk_Eneolithic Russia U2e2a1 Q-YP1669 Q1a2b~
I6740 6971 Khvalynsk low admix Russia .. Q-YP1669 Q1a2b~
I6407 6831 Russia_Khvalynsk_Eneolithic Russia U2e1b Q-YP1669 Q1a2b~
I20188 6697 Khvalynsk low admix Russia R1b Q-YP1669 Q1a2b~
I8451 6448 Russia_Eneolithic Russia U5a1d2 Q-F1096 Q1a
I6739 6415 Khvalynsk high admix Russia U2e2a1 Q-YP1669 Q1a2b~
I8744 6400 Russia_Eneolithic Russia U4a1 Q-F1096 Q1a
I11030 6348 Russia_Eneolithic Russia U2e2a Q-F1096 Q1a
I18819 4700 Romania_EBA_Yamnaya_oSouth Romania H2a Q-M25 Q1a2

These guys have extremely few descendants in NW Europe: https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-YP1669/
The Yamnaya M25 is chronologically an outlier and might be L712 actually, but I would not bet on that as living Q1a2 into Central Europe arrived with Huns and Eurasian Avars in early medieval proven by ancient DNA.

In EBA times, we have additional 4 Q samples on different branches from those above, signalling another change in the Q-population of the Steppe:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-BZ1466/ is from Kazakhstan, living descendants in Georgia and Europe.
I26302 4900 Kazakhstan_EBA_Yamnaya Kazakhstan W Q-BZ1466 Q1b2b1b2b~
I26231 4900 Kazakhstan_Kumsay_EBA Kazakhstan C5c+16234 Q-L939 Q1b2b1b2b~
I assume they were original Central Asians getting under Yamnaya influence and migrating westwards with their new friends (especially as mtDNA C5 is also Northeast Asian)

We also have another Khakassian Afanasievo Q-Y7826 sample added to the 3 known one (https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Y6826/) - they are extinct as it seems
I20541 4661 Russia_Afanasievo_Khakassia_possible Russia T2c1a2 Q-Y6826 Q1b2a1a~

And finally we also have one L54>L330>Y18330 individual (https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-Y18330/)
RISE662 4067 Russia_BA_Okunevo Russia H6a1b Q-Y18330 Q1b1a3a1~
This line is ancestral to the strongest extant Kazakh-Hungarian paternal connection (L332>BZ427)

I have to note that we can still not account for Q-L527, the other Nordic group, so it might have dwelled elsewhere during Mesolithic-Eneolithic times, probably on the territory of Belarus which unfortunately completely lacks any ancient DNA sampling and where L527 splits first (https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L527/)
Jack Johnson likes this post
Y-DNA: R1b-U152>Z36>BY1328>L671 (Late Roman North Italy to Pannonia)
mtDNA: U4c1 (Proto-IE > Germanic/Scandinavian branch?)
maternal grandpa Y: G2a-L13>L1263>Z38846 (Saxons to Hungary)
maternal grandpa mtDNA: B4c1a (Hungarian conquerors)
maternal grandma's Y: R1b-U106>S5520>BY33291 (Saxons to Hungary)
paternal grandpa's mtDNA: HV0
paternal grandma's mtDNA: H5a (Slavic)
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#41
(06-05-2024, 08:32 AM)Jafety Wrote: So actually the Scandinavian Q-L804 people today are the only living descendants of an early Samara culture population, but they have a TMRCA of 3200 yBP per Yfull, so we cannot account for their place of habitation for exact 4000 years.

I've ranted a bit concerning this hear in a wider north western norwegian context.
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=880

Whether to test or not to sequence is a controversy in norway, a shockingly small amount of archeological samples are sequenced.
Either for being timid, tierd of the interest from Saami skull collecting Europeans (that has been a thing in psychiatry from central europe, measuring skulls and arguing degenerative subspecies).

The room to speculate between slowly disappearing yDNA haplogroups due to slightly lower fertility rate not expected to have an autosomal effect.
Whether Finnish people did too good job of protecting the forest they liked to burn down to plant food, or if they became Reindeer herders.

Norway, while not having any samples to offer anywhere near this part of Norway.

Quote:The northern and southern populations were once considered the same subspecies. However, genetic analysis shows that the reindeer found in Dovrefjell, in central Norway, are related to reindeer in Beringia, whereas the reindeer found in southern Norway, such as on the Hardangervidda plateau, are related to reindeer from southern Europe. They may have descended from the Finnish forest reindeer (R. fennicus fennicus) that historically occupied parts of Eastern Europe.

Luckily, I had my sequencing done at YSEQ, and were told he had been were my relatives are from to secure a sample for Q-L804 and could tell the area had the highest frequency.

There may be dragons, or merely a complete lack of sequencing and a "natural bottleneck" or something similar?
I'm not ready to give up the idea of a population migration to Norway that isn't through Siberia, with Reindeer and pulk mobility across an ice covered atlantic.
In current sampling, there isn't a heat map that I know of, showing a weak signal in Russia for Q-L804 as R-L21 does in southern denmark.
Mind you, Russians are supposed to descend and trace it roots to Swedish trade routes through Kyiv as far as Armenia perhaps, culturally and historically?
I find it plausible that a family decided Norway was terrible and continued east? Wouldn't exclude the possibility by lack of samples from Scandinavia just yet.
Or maybe scallops eating, sheep herding and raft building people in that part of Norway didn't have a problem with them or their Reindeer after driving the much prettier Beringer reindeer through hostile Siberia, to then make them one of two Mountain Reindeer herds. It's entirely reasonable they would have been attacked for the fur and herds alone, but for some reason or another they are one of two breeds of Mountain Reindeer and must involve Q-L804.
Basically same page, two different national parks in Dovre.
https://rondane-dovre.no/en/wild-reindeer/
https://dovrefjell-sunndalsfjella.no/en/wild-reindeer/
I jest, but still, the sentiment is valid, and it is harder to find as nice pictures of the other species of mountain reindeer.
https://hardangervidda.com/dyreliv-hardangervidda/
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#42
So, you're Q-L804? Welcome to the forum and to the Q-M242 subforum!

I find this topic interesting for some reason, probably because of the shared descent of Q and R from P-P226. 

[Image: Woolly-mammoth-hunters.jpg]private image upload
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.

- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
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#43
(06-09-2024, 09:35 PM)rmstevens2 Wrote: So, you're Q-L804? Welcome to the forum and to the Q-M242 subforum!

I find this topic interesting for some reason, probably because of the shared descent of Q and R from P-P226. 

No, I'm:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y306019/
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/V15a2/

But genealogy from Møre and Romsdal that has the highest frequency of Q-L804 according to sources.
Paternal line goes here, 1580.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordfjordeid
Maternal here 1682 or something.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinshamn
11 generations of marine activity with some influx from valleys and mountains.
Parents moved away, ah well, guess what for...
But enough to somewhat nuts over, in a who's who of sorts --- never entierly got satisfied, and no good answers as to why people from Eide were called "essere", Averøy for P-kaill, and Molde for A-kall. As it always felt like relatives and locals were teasting me when saying it was due to all the last and first names beginning with P, or maybe for being potato farmers. Maybe Essere for being shifty, and A-kall for Moldensere being top notch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eide,_M%C3...og_Romsdal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aver%C3%B8y
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molde
You can generally tell around general regions, like south møre, north more and romsdalen in the middle.
https://www.norgesnasjonalparker.no/en/n...einheimen/

So I'm here to ignore anthropology, and help with insight, it's not possible for Red King crab as a foreign species to move past south Møre, because its worth to much and will be fished up, as that crap goes too far back. And hard to ignore with remote perspectives from distant parts of the world.
Could it be,[ᚹ w /w/ *wunjō "joy"] for north møre, for a bit more of a steretype for drinking and fighting more? The Icelandic vegvisir symbol given to them from Norway, seem to be a map to this general region or further, counting fjords and historical cultural palces in the south, not possible to agree and settle on anything theyr a nightmare in different ways.

R1b become a bit less frequent and I2 more frequent in north møre.
But really more that is somewhat cannot be helped, comparable to other places.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haakon_Sig...20to%20him.
Eat Scallops for better bone density, as it's 2000% daily vitamin D and 15% of C from 100 grams, good uptake isn't required. Haakon Jarl is probably defacto ruler of getting people to repeat local bullshit, and I personally believe he was adopted, grandsson of Håkon Grjotgardsson, and that last name essentially mean gravel-farm's-son; an extra 's' is common for such people, and suspect it implies adopted or father unknown, possibly not of the household or family he belongs to; so possible there could have been a tradition of adopting childhood geniuses to take a piss and be diplomatic and all. 'Lade-jarl' essentially meaning loading-jarl, i.e. fishery and shipping minister. So why not ignore history and at least conventional interpretation of rather cryptic spin and embelishment. And mundane questions could explain more, maybe Q-L804 brought too fertile women and less of a need with effective sperm, anyways, the bullshit is piled high and the usual academic tend to run of a cliff with a detail or end up going in circles, dreaming of might people and heoric deeds and taking tales of epic battles with no questions asked for inviting big thoughts. Or maybe ask about that one personality that is happy on the desolate arctic wasteland gaining cultural wealthy. What I mean is, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_battle_of_Solskjel, "Harald was again victorious, and his two opponents Huntiof, King of Nordmøre and his father-in-law, King Nokkve of Romsdal, were both slain in battle.", well Nokkve is likely to mean "enough holy places", or actually nok/enough Vé, from will and choice, Vili and Vé; and could be imagined to be talking about a trade blockade at Hitra or Smøla. Where an aphorism can be argued, about farmers coveting farmland, the fishermen fishing towns, boats and ships, the herder better herds and grassland, where the bit about farmland rarely applies for this part of norway as much as it does for denmark and sweden that probably wanted the trade to dominate, own or occupy.
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#44
Hi Olav,

It is good to welcome a Norwegian here.
Probably my question would be banal/trivia but I have compiled a lot of data on Scandinavia, Britain and Ireland in the last few years.
Just for fun I was also looking into the possibility to find the Y-DNA signature of Ragnar Lothbrok (if he ever existed).
Do you have any traditions/clues in Norway, any family today claiming descent etc?

Considering the moves of his sons, we only have the following objective data:
An SNP appearing around 800 CE and having 5-6 direct descendant SNPs (or more)
Descendant lines should appear in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Britain and Ireland optimally.
These are actually much harder criteria than someone would first think, and there are not so many potential solutions.
So far I was looking into these options (although FTDNA Discover seems to consequently give earlier dates in the early medieval than realistic on SNP-count):
I1-BY3429
I1-Y13039
I1-BY509 (probably the best option, McNeill and MacIntyre clans would descend from Ivar the Boneless)
R1a-YP280 (in the Somerled clade, so then McDonalds would descend from Ivar the Boneless)

This is of course only a game, as we would never actually know for real.
Y-DNA: R1b-U152>Z36>BY1328>L671 (Late Roman North Italy to Pannonia)
mtDNA: U4c1 (Proto-IE > Germanic/Scandinavian branch?)
maternal grandpa Y: G2a-L13>L1263>Z38846 (Saxons to Hungary)
maternal grandpa mtDNA: B4c1a (Hungarian conquerors)
maternal grandma's Y: R1b-U106>S5520>BY33291 (Saxons to Hungary)
paternal grandpa's mtDNA: HV0
paternal grandma's mtDNA: H5a (Slavic)
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#45
(06-10-2024, 08:13 AM)Jafety Wrote: Hi Olav,

It is good to welcome a Norwegian here.
Probably my question would be banal/trivia but I have compiled a lot of data on Scandinavia, Britain and Ireland in the last few years.
Just for fun I was also looking into the possibility to find the Y-DNA signature of Ragnar Lothbrok (if he ever existed).
Do you have any traditions/clues in Norway, any family today claiming descent etc?

Considering the moves of his sons, we only have the following objective data:
An SNP appearing around 800 CE and having 5-6 direct descendant SNPs (or more)
Descendant lines should appear in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Britain and Ireland optimally.
These are actually much harder criteria than someone would first think, and there are not so many potential solutions.
So far I was looking into these options (although FTDNA Discover seems to consequently give earlier dates in the early medieval than realistic on SNP-count):
I1-BY3429
I1-Y13039
I1-BY509 (probably the best option, McNeill and MacIntyre clans would descend from Ivar the Boneless)
R1a-YP280 (in the Somerled clade, so then McDonalds would descend from Ivar the Boneless)

This is of course only a game, as we would never actually know for real.

No I'm afraid it cannot be helped, I understand the interest of course.
But there are too much that indicate a wall of nonsense, as for Norse culture the central parts are:
There are Things, and possibly Thingmen fanatics. Governed by the ideals and rules set forth by Ragnarök, or more clearly; while there may be an idea of all father, whomever that is has only one son as Forseti and the intellectual guard with of courts of law with professional soldiers, or they would litterally decapitate if they were not happy and were denied another day of arguments with holy protection against deaths and fatalities.

There is much to indicate most of them were adopted, which may involve cherry picking for sampling with confirmation bias and other expectations.

But any interpretation around "high seats" and powerful petty kingdoms and powerful and popular leaders need to be understood here.
And I am aware that Europe in parts of history recruited "kings" with this cultural baggage, but in associated of kin, that it's king of kins in context of it.
Anyhow, you could be expected to be able to filibuster processes with enough force and do what you want, unless maybe hiding under Reindeer Sami near the Norwegian Plateu. Finding him may be as hard as finding Napoleon and harder, where taking to arms for opporutinties and prosperity for farmers, there may be a last tax exemption done personally by Napoleon in France that won't be undone. But not likely that such a person was a central member in ethnic group or dynasty.

But can assume that Loþbrok didn't involve Göttland, Dalarna, and Åland Islands. But maybe he was, but from isolated perspectives, who would want to approve war between agricultural economies in Europe, or be involved in that. I a much more recent history were the last Tzar of Russia threatened to involved the Saami people, whom probably had an excessive diplomatic and moral influence up until this part of European history. Maybe Denmark can be helpful, as history indicate that they matter more than ways and morals of Northern Europe. But as the North of Norway is involved for old English puns, old Nick will cut you, old Erik will make a mess in the south according to northern Saami, that expect something. Generally, Nils from Norway had to be better with a knife for whatever ails you between, fisheries and herding activity, but not in Norway. It's a mess, but Ironside or Lothbrok isn't likely to be helpful in any genealogical matters. In a related thread, and I must point it out, Q-L804 as high frequency in Norway, their Reindeer are the most prevalent in national parks.

Quote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_r...n%20Europe.
Quote:The northern and southern populations were once considered the same subspecies. However, genetic analysis shows that the reindeer found in Dovrefjell, in central Norway, are related to reindeer in Beringia, whereas the reindeer found in southern Norway, such as on the Hardangervidda plateau, are related to reindeer from southern Europe. They may have descended from the Finnish forest reindeer (R. fennicus fennicus) that historically occupied parts of Eastern Europe.

The "police" cut you in Scandinavia, that may have made an impact in trying times with Reindeer as a food bank.
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