The Origin of R1b-P312

[Manofthehour]

Mitchell this user said R--Z49 seems to have strong conection with veneti , so maybe R-Z49 have origin in veneti tribes from italy?

Not what I meant. First of all, Z49 goes all the way back to 2500 BC. This is way before we can talk about "Venetic" or even Celtic, Italic etc... 
Second of all, the "Veneti" themselves didn't probably originate in Italy, but tribal ethnogenesis is a tricky and often multilayered thing. 

I just noticed a pattern of S8183 in the Adriatic and so I think some Venetic or related people were involved in the spread of this subclade, not that it originated in this tribe of people.

Tribes and ethnicities and their formations require a good bit of nuance to understand, and even then it's often just estimations if not guesswork.
And Y-dna haplogroups, especially ones formed many thousands of years before such specific tribes show up in the historical record, are going to be spread out among multiple other peoples, generally at least distantly related, but sometimes different.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

IMO Z49 originated north of the alps near the rhine

Why do you think R-Z49 probably came from north of the alps?

FTDNA 68% probability dates U152>L2>Z49 to 2651 - 2030 BCE.  Based on the oldest U152>L2 sample with a midpoint date of 2428 BC, I think its safe to assume that Z49 was walking the earth in the 2400s BC, but to be safe FTDNA's midpoint date is 2300s BC 



Here are all the known U152>L2 ancient samples from the 2400s to 2300s BC .  


None of them are south of the Alps.

If we look at all U152>L2 samples dated to 2400s to 1700 BC, again none are located south of the Alps.



Therefore, I see no current evidence that Z49 started out south of the Alps.

[brunolord15]

IMO Z49 originated north of the alps near the rhine

Why do you think R-Z49 probably came from north of the alps?

FTDNA 68% probability dates U152>L2>Z49 to 2651 - 2030 BCE.  Based on the oldest U152>L2 sample with a midpoint date of 2428 BC, I think its safe to assume that Z49 was walking the earth in the 2400s BC, but to be safe FTDNA's midpoint date is 2300s BC 



Here are all the known U152>L2 ancient samples from the 2400s to 2300s BC .  


None of them are south of the Alps.

If we look at all U152>L2 samples dated to 2400s to 1700 BC, again none are located south of the Alps.



Therefore, I see no current evidence that Z49 started out south of the Alps.

 
Thank you for your explanation , your knowledge about my R-L2 is amazing, based on these informations about R-L2 my ancient ancestors was probably a mix between swiss , south germany and italian? I know these countries didnt exist back then but i mean places where probably these ancient fathers did born

[Mitchell-Atkins]

While Z49 may not have started out south of the Alps, it does show up there in the Bronze Age

-Broion 3 was a man who lived between 1532 - 1452 BCE during the Late Bronze Age and was found in the region now known as Grottina dei Covoloni del Broion, Vicenza, Italy.

-Obrežje 5695 was a man who lived between 1423 - 1268 BCE during the European Bronze Age and was found in the region now known as Obrežje, Jesenice na Dolenjskem, Slovenia.

He was associated with the Bronze Age Balkans cultural group.

-Bezdanjača 18415 was a 9-12 year old boy who lived between 1500 - 800 BCE during the European Bronze Age and was found in the region now known as Bezdanjača Cave, Vrhovine, Croatia. He was associated with the Bronze Age Balkans cultural group.



https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Z49/ancient

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Looking through an old anthrogenica thread and came across the old post of mine

From some source (Reich spreadsheet?), I have

I0805, in Quedenburg, Germany is U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z51, Z55>L562, and is dated to 2302 BC and

PRU004 is U152>L2>Z49>Z142>FGC22963, FGC22969>FGC22940, in Prague, 2314 BC.
Both are 3 SNPs down from Z142 and have similar dates (2302-2314 BC)

These would be 2 of the oldest known Z49 samples from the 2300s BC and are from Germany and Bohemia.

[brunolord15]

[quote="Mitchell-Atkins" pid="11163" dateline="1708566825"]
Looking through an old anthrogenica thread and came across the old post of mine
[quote]
From some source (Reich spreadsheet?), I have

I0805, in Quedenburg, Germany is U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z51, Z55>L562, and is dated to 2302 BC and

PRU004 is U152>L2>Z49>Z142>FGC22963, FGC22969>FGC22940, in Prague, 2314 BC.
Both are 3 SNPs down from Z142 and have similar dates (2302-2314 BC)
[/quote]
These would be 2 of the oldest known Z49 samples from the 2300s BC and are from Germany and Bohemia.



very interesting, I am very curious to know where my oldest ancestors were from and honestly I can only trust haplogroups, and this information that you shared with me led me to conclude that my ancestors from the Bronze Age to the end of the Iron Age they must probably be a mix of Swiss, German, French, Czech, Austrian and Italian, I also believe that I must have ancestors from Croatia and Slovenia, taking into account only my Y

[rmstevens2]

I'd like to get back to this discussion, but with a thread that is already 17 pages long, we'll probably start repeating ourselves. 

I'm still waiting for some P312 in Corded Ware, which is where it should first appear, given its likely birthdate (c. 2850 BC) and its ultimate prevalence in Bell Beaker. 

P312 was born - if FTDNA Discover is right - sometime between Włodarczak's CWC-X Horizon (3000-2900 BC) and his CWC-A Horizon (2800-2600 BC). So, P312 could even date to the first Yamnaya males to become early Corded Ware (or pre-Corded Ware) males. 

FTDNA Discover says the 95% confidence interval for P312 is 3524-2232 BC, with a most likely estimate of 2835 BC, rounded to 2850 BC.

Maybe we can navigate around subclades of P312 and stick with P312 itself.

I

[ArmandoR1b]

Yes, based on the dates and the Y-DNA results of R-L151(xP312,U106) for the CW specimens that have been published it is possible that P312 was born in the CWC. This isn't a 100% guarantee though since the Yamnaya people that are the recent ancestors of CWC were highly mobile. Not all graves were found. Only those of the elite. I think that we are going to have to wait a very long time until they publish pertinent specimens for the location and culture of the source of the first P312.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Based on the earliest known U106 date, I’m inclined to place P312 prior to 2900 BC but no earlier than 3100 BC.

My guess would be western Ukraine, southern Belarus, or eastern Poland.

Somewhere that GAC was found during that period.


Just need to find a 3000 BC GAC map to limit the area further.

[rmstevens2]

Based on the earliest known U106 date, I’m inclined to place P312 prior to 2900 BC but no earlier than 3100 BC.

My guess would be western Ukraine, southern Belarus, or eastern Poland.

Somewhere that GAC was found during that period.

Personally, I'm with you. Could be found in those Yamnaya graves in Podolia enroute to SE Poland.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Based on the earliest known U106 date, I’m inclined to place P312 prior to 2900 BC but no earlier than 3100 BC.

My guess would be western Ukraine, southern Belarus, or eastern Poland.

Somewhere that GAC was found during that period.

Personally, I'm with you. Could be found in those Yamnaya graves in Podolia enroute to SE Poland.

Added a GAC map but I need to find one with some chronology/GAC phases to further limit the geopgraphy.

[rmstevens2]

Based on the earliest known U106 date, I’m inclined to place P312 prior to 2900 BC but no earlier than 3100 BC.

My guess would be western Ukraine, southern Belarus, or eastern Poland.

Somewhere that GAC was found during that period.

Personally, I'm with you. Could be found in those Yamnaya graves in Podolia enroute to SE Poland.

Added a GAC map but I need to find one with some chronology/GAC phases to further limit the geopgraphy.

Great map! That is why one picture is worth a thousand words.

[rmstevens2]

You know, I'm not that into my EEF ancestry, but, if you think about it, GAC was a pretty cool culture. Gimbutas thought it was kurganized, with a steppe elite at the top over a farmer substrate.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

No map, but this site https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ra_Culture

list GAC site Gd-2452 in Sandomierz in Southeast Poland 50°41'00.0"N 21°45'00.0"E

as having older GAC date ranges at 68.3% Confidence interval of 3096-2893 BC

[Mitchell-Atkins]

An even more promising GAC site is Ki5011 in Tovpyzhyn, Ukraine. 

There are 5 date ranges at this site, with the oldest date ranges at 68.3% CI date being 3026-3023 BC, 3014-2980 BC and 2968-2952 BC.  This site is 178 miles walking distance from Podolia.




Another GAC site in Ukraine even closer to Podolia (122 mile walking distance) is Vorvulyntsi.  Oldest 68.3% CI date range is 2893-2836 which is a little late.