Will the Ancient Egyptian samples ever be published?
(01-17-2025, 04:18 PM)parasar Wrote: Is this the paper being referred to?
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10809863/

No, that predynastic sample came from Gebelein and was half a century older.
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(01-17-2025, 04:22 PM)FormosanAristocrat Wrote:
(01-17-2025, 04:18 PM)parasar Wrote: Is this the paper being referred to?
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10809863/

No, that predynastic sample came from Gebelein and was half a century older.

It will probably have high ANA and SSA due to being in the very South of Egypt
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It is probable, yes. Though as ilabv stated a few days ago, the readings of it being something akin to 40-50% African in total could as well be a subject of contamination or whatever.
IMO, they should occupy a position between the Christian Nubians and Copts.
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(01-13-2025, 02:42 AM)ilabv Wrote: I forgot to note, there is also the curious fact that there are fully contaminated samples, that are simply North Italians. It makes this a whole lot clearer.

As for the Egypt HG in Africans, there is no reason to assume its a fake population because East Africans dont absorb it much.

1: Sims are awful, sims using low coverage samples are even worse

2: East African fits are still awful, clearly they require another source. It is likely that much of this is an Egyptian HG source, but those who introduced pastoralism seem to have made their way across the Red Sea, which means they came through Arabia. So Arabian HG is likely another source, perhaps mixed with some Levant Neolithic.

The reason for the poor fits for East Africans (notably populations with less recent Arabian from ~3kya: Somali, Oromo) lay not in the proxies for the people who introduced pastoralism to their ancestors, but the population that adopted it - namely the 'proto-Nilotic' or, how I prefer to refer to them as, Ancestral East Africans.

Sudanese7 (+ other modern Nilotic samples) has ~30% Niger-Congo-like ancestry that isn't present in East Africans. It's all to easy to just lump all of SSA into a single mental cluster, but considering how genetically distinct AA-speaking East Africans are from NC-speakers, this makes a massive difference.

Incidentally, the simulated coordinates weren't 'discovered' by way of working backwards using Afroasiatic East Africans; the AEA coordinates were simulated using Mota, removing the excess South African HG. It just so happened to work perfectly as a proxy for Nilotes (as their East African component) and for Afroasiatic East Africans.

I replicated the run here, only replacing the Sudanese coordinates with AEA, and just look at what it does for the distance. 

[Image: 3KGDFpB]

Not to say that the other proxies are perfect, but they work well. The leaker on Twitter himself, when asked, said that the DNA found in Neolithic Upper Egypt is very close to proto-Cushitic. I think that the role Arabian HG played in introducing pastoralism into Africa is way overstated.

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As for contamination, I recall an R-Pxyz clade found in an Ancient Egyptian actually having a younger coalescence date than the sample itself which is what got the alarm bells ringing initially. Not sure what the consensus is now but yeah people began to become very skeptical of a lot of the older, seemingly out-of-place samples. Very interesting seeing everything come together in your posts. If you aren't on Twitter as you say, it could use someone as well read as you are to educate the biased and the ignorant.
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(01-13-2025, 06:15 PM)MuSSA Wrote: The leaker JFD said in a Twitter space already, and judging by the tone this character was very likely ilabv


Leaks from JFD.
-ANA from SSA not separated.
-qpf4 broad not fine scale.
-poor sample.  Naqadans pilot between high SSA Up Ug and Sudanese Nubians, overwhelming no way back.
-unidentified talked about in unpublished Nile HG - lune/miro/marwan.  High ANA populations epipaleolthic/Mesolithic Nile.  40% in Natufian.
-lot of papers upcoming.  2 OK 1 of which (i2507)  Gizans (North)…..3 Nilotic. 15% total African.  Already higher African than Copts.  Copt like profile very homo middle an new kingdom to antiquity.
No less that 20 African un uppers E.  Floor is 25.
-my question. Uniparental data enforcing Nile HG.  A “i would have to look up the specific clade but there are a bunch of E clades and a bunch of B clades including E-M2 clades. I would have to check all the info.
-1 new kingdom. E-V22. Upper E priest.  2 lates era. G2a and J1.
-(my question unknown) Nile HP predicting intra African substructure for contemporary Saharan/SSA/ rift valley folks?
-process announced to sequel al these royal mummies may come out this year 2024 “ why are you even saying that. You are going to disappoint all these people and its going to take 1000 years”.also Hyksos data They also mentioned late this year (2024) or early next year but it may be never.  Maybe 2027.
2022 works was supposed to come out…nada
Jordan, Palestine, Syria.  Never came out.
-(my commen on the going to the Africa genetic confrerence in 2012) and data presented in the conference has not been published yet and or published only in 2022.  10 year wait. Academics are hoarding the data. Assholism.
-why so many samples outside the continent. 
tried sequencing data from Saudi Arabia. Never worked.
A few samples on G25 of midevil studies.  Look very similar to Mahra Yemenis.
Some samples from Yemen that are very old and have very good covereage.  Not sure if those are the E-M2 ones.  “I can check their haplos right now.
Yemen Iron Age exists.,
mtDNA R1 (contamination) HV1abc (high coverage  883795 snps) K1a19 (mt contamination) H (critical contamination) Embargo. Many of the list have not been released and they have been on the sheet for years.  Been on the list since the beginning of the autosomal ancient dna rush.
Yemen unknown 8000bc sample Exist
Omani data exist.
“I say total African, i know people want to differentiate.  ANA and SSA.  We dont have a good understanding on how ANA relates to this Population” “more like Africans than eurasians” not differentiated.  25-40% 15% needs to be the floor.
Lower Predynastic Levantine EPA diluted whatever NileHG+Levantine Neolithic exists.  Didn’t affect upper Egyptian Levantine Neolithic ancestors
Predynastic upper has a base of 25% ANA and as much as 20% Nilotic.  By Middle Kingdom a profile exists that is similar to comps across the entire country.  Genetic flattening effect. It has always existed. Based profile substrata.  Middle kingdoms = Arab times.
Copts most similar to the AE Average…but its a NEW profile that is about 3000 years old.
Abusir samples are weird.  They have very little SSA… a little not a lot 3% very small.  Don’t think they are separate for an AE average. The AE average they have for middle. . New / 4% Nilotic”.  Qpadm or G25.  55-70 of the A E average.  A bunch of Iron Age Berber.  Excess Nilotic 3-5% West Africa. Total African 8-9%.  E Muslims have  a lot of Near midevil Levantine ancestry diluting the AE ancestry
Nobody can differentiate from SSA and ANA . This Lower coverage 100x lower coverage than a bad shitty sample. 0.1. Coverage.  Converted and aligned  SNP count was 1841  _Fastq file.
Natural selection, sexual selections, drift as a reasons regardless of ancestral makeup.
(My question) does Nile HG resolved Africa in substructure that we have yet to see in modern models.  “Seem like a very significant amount of Levantine Neolithic stuff that East Africans have is Nile Hunter Gatherer.  Seems to get absorbed.”
No affect on Dinka. “ I think we need more data from the Sahara”.  The paternal linages don’t really indicate such a thing, not certain.
A lot of those lines originate Nile HG population… a lot of Natufian clades originate in Egyptians.  People have informed that IBM is the contributor to Natufian Materal culture and DNA.  People are skipping over the Nile Ghost population.  Same with the NWA samples…model with Levantine Neolithic, i think is Egypt Neolithic or Egyptian Chacolithic.
-converted the Naqadans low converage one to PLINK.  Sending over the whole set to avoid aligned and conversion.
JFD origin of proto AA…..Egypt along the Red Sea..  Coincided with Nile HG mixing into the Native with Kebaran To make Natufian.  Natufian is like 40% Nile HG.
70% ANA for Takarkori.
Data from private Harvard data sheet.
leaked, MIRO has access. Davidski has the sheet from Reich.  Entire data based of unpublished Samples.
3000 unpublished samples, told is ok to discuss them, weird club of deuchbags that dont discuss it.  data hoarding assholes.
(My question) Anything NDA’d
Nigerian maples R1b (really old) obvious V88. 600-400BC
10000 Samples unpublished 3000 on G25
Saudi/Iron/Bronze age - J1a2b on all. Minor contamination on X chromosome.  L2a1, i1b, u4c1,



It is settled, the Predynastics are closest to Sudanese.

(01-15-2025, 04:33 AM)Horatio McCallister Wrote:
(01-13-2025, 06:26 PM)ilabv Wrote:
(01-12-2025, 09:44 PM)Horatio McCallister Wrote: So then what makes you so confident that Upper Egyptians are going to be significantly more African than Lower Egyptians if you acknowledge the samples themselves are garbage? Again, if these OK samples are legit than it seems more likely that Naqadans are going to be overwhelming Levantine in origin too and not some heavily admixed native Egyptian HG that adopted agriculture.

The Old Kingdom Giza samples are approximately 50% Levant EBA + Levant N

Why would upper Egypt have even more? It should have less. This goes well with the archaeology that shows the most Levantine influence in the north, and also with physical anthropology which shows a Caucasoid population in the north and a ‘mixed Caucasoid-Negroid’ population in the south.

I doubt that there's going to be any significant difference between Lower and Upper Egyptians at all. The neolithic in Egypt was a result of demic diffusion from the Levant, if Lower Egyptians were essentially 100% Near Eastern, I doubt Upper Egyptians are going to be much different, at best maybe marginal leftover Nile HG ancestry. The Upper Egyptians didn't just take the Neolithic package from Levantine-origin Lower Egyptians, they'll be mostly Near Eastern derived themselves, because they largely descend from agriculturalists from Lower Egypt.

Anyway, if there are really even genuine samples out there then they need to be finally published and formally analyzed, this willful obscurantism on the part of professional geneticists is pathetic.

Huh, where are you getting this idea that Upper Egyptians largely descend from agriculturalists from Lower Egypt, looking at predynastic and early dynastic Upper Egypt their material culture is largely a local development that really doesn't owe much to Lower Egypt. Also, its been established since the late 19th century that their was an appreciable difference between early Upper and Lower Egyptians skulls, with predynastic Upper Egyptians in many analyses, mainly craniometric, being most similar to north Ethio-Semitic peoples and Beja Sudanis/Eritreans, in other analyses, cranial non-metric, they're closest to present day North Africans.
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(01-17-2025, 04:51 PM)FormosanAristocrat Wrote: It is probable, yes. Though as ilabv stated a few days ago, the readings of it being something akin to 40-50% African in total could as well be a subject of contamination or whatever.
IMO, they should occupy a position between the Christian Nubians and Copts.

Agreed. I think they'll plot around Mozab/Saharawi.
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(01-18-2025, 12:15 AM)TellTheTruth Wrote:
(01-17-2025, 04:51 PM)FormosanAristocrat Wrote: It is probable, yes. Though as ilabv stated a few days ago, the readings of it being something akin to 40-50% African in total could as well be a subject of contamination or whatever.
IMO, they should occupy a position between the Christian Nubians and Copts.

Agreed. I think they'll plot around Mozab/Saharawi.

I think this is reasonable for the Egypt/Nile HG population (though still distant to them), but after Levant N and later Levant EBA (both of which likely trickled into Upper Egypt), I suspect they'd be pushed a bit genetically north.
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(01-19-2025, 07:48 AM)ilabv Wrote:
(01-18-2025, 12:15 AM)TellTheTruth Wrote:
(01-17-2025, 04:51 PM)FormosanAristocrat Wrote: It is probable, yes. Though as ilabv stated a few days ago, the readings of it being something akin to 40-50% African in total could as well be a subject of contamination or whatever.
IMO, they should occupy a position between the Christian Nubians and Copts.

Agreed. I think they'll plot around Mozab/Saharawi.

I think this is reasonable for the Egypt/Nile HG population (though still distant to them), but after Levant N and later Levant EBA (both of which likely trickled into Upper Egypt), I suspect they'd be pushed a bit genetically north.

Have the unreleased, low-coverage Egyptian hunter-gatherer samples yielded yDNA and / or mtDNA? If so, which haplogroups? And are they notably distinct from the two Natufian samples that have yielded DNA?
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@ilabv I really enjoy your posts. Have you heard anything about the retesting of the Amarna royals?

If I understand you correctly, in the MK, northern and southern Egyptian profiles converged, with only minor clinal variation. So the average Upper Egyptian from this period would have about 10% Dinka-like ancestry and about 5% ANA via Nile HG (this Mesolithic HG component mostly having been diluted by Neolithic & Bronze Age Levantine)? And Lower Egyptians then would be about 0-5% Dinka + 5% ANA? So MK Egyptians as whole would range from 5-15% SSA?

Are none (excluding Nubians) from the MK higher than this? Including those from the southernmost regions of Upper Egypt (e.g., Thebes)? And no difference from MK to NK?

BTW, you mentioned this "mixed-Negroid" phenotype portrayed in some Dynastic and OK statuary. What are your thoughts on depictions of the 18th Dynasty? Many of these individuals (e.g., Amenhotep III, Tiye, Akhenaten) seem to resemble Nubians based on these depictions. Egyptologists have long speculated about potential Nubian influence within this dynasty, usually tracing it to Tao and his family. Do you think there is any basis for this? After all, Egyptians were known to heavily employ Nubian mercenaries at various periods. It doesn't seem that outrageous to suggest that some might have risen to positions of power and intermarried into the Upper Egyptian elite. Or do you think this is just phenotypic variation? Certainly, that seems possible. Some modern Upper Egyptians could arguably pass as Nubians, but then again, they have a fair bit more SSA than the ancient population (AFAIAA, this look seems to be less common among Copts).

In particular, this sculpture of Amenhotep III stands out to me. This was created by Thutmose, the master sculptor responsible for Nefertiti’s Berlin bust. It appears to be a portrait study done with Greco-Roman-style realism and shows continuity with other depictions, such as this statue unearthed from his funerary temple in Luxor. One can find more “Caucasoid” looking depictions, but as these are rarer and show less continuity with other portrait quality works, it’s probably a safe bet that these are more idealized, and this racially admixed look depicted in the two works below is a better reflection of his actual appearance, whatever his genetic profile may have been.

Assuming this isn’t just phenotypic variation, I don’t imagine there’s a high probability that any of the Amarna royals were full-blooded Nubians or anything like that. If some of their ancestors were Nubians, it’s unlikely they would have completely maintained this profile, even with all the incest. But it wouldn’t shock me if some of them had a sort of intermediate Upper Egyptian/Nubian profile with like 25-30% SSA. What do you think?
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Some thoughts:

I am mostly sure many in Egypt today, regardless of region, would resemble Amenhotep III. In fact, there are statues from Lower Egypt constructed in historical times that bear stark similarities despite depicting entirely different figures.
The same could be said for Akhenaten.

Finally, your proposition that they possess lineages from Nubians is entirely likely, if not plausible. Seqenenre Tao hailed from Thebes, and ever since the advent of the 11th dynasty, a presence of C-Group Nubians in Hierakonpolis was conspicuously noted. With the intrinsic regional proximity and shared ancestral ties since at least the Neolithic (with the only variable being proportions), it was of no surprise that he'd be reminiscent of those who share "Nubian lineages".

There are theories suggesting that the 12th or 13th dynasty contributed partially to the founders of the Theban dynasty, although this is mostly a posited facet among the "fandom" last I checked. Still, this remains a possibility too if we assume the upper class of the Thebaid received no major discontinuity.

Thuya, who was the mother of Tiye, was proposed to have been a descendant or relative in some form, of Ahmose Nefetari. The latter, was noted to have Nubian-like features and was mostly depicted with pitch black skin on murals. Egyptians used the greatly exaggerated dark skin to showcase a person's Nubian or southern lineage but also to symbolize the fertility of the Nile and therefore signifying said figure's "holiness". These are equally likely and can appear independently or concomitantly.
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Thuya? This gal?

[Image: thuya-c.t.-scan.jpg]

[Image: mummy-of-thuya-egypt-museum-1.jpg]
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I would agree that Thuya's mummy does not look Nubian. Yuya's certainly does not (arguably he looks more Semitic than Egyptian, but this look would exist within Egyptian variation). But it's important to note that the lighter hair coloring is almost certainly due to the mummification process, and not all Nubians have kinky hair like Maiherpri.

Tiye's mummy also does not look Nubian, either, and yet she is consistently portrayed with this racially admixed phenotype. It isn't just the Berlin bust. Her plastic cast portrays her with similar features, as do other depictions, which makes me think it's a relatively good indication of what she looked like, although obviously she would be lighter than this. The Northern Sudanese BBC anchor, Zeinab Badawi is almost her exact double, down to the severe expression, and she also has the same soft, wavy hair as Tiye's mummy.

It's also worth pointing out that the Gebelein mummy would likewise not be judged to have any notable SSA influence based on its appearance, but it would seem that isn't the case.


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Most of the New Kingdom royal mummies look like robust versions of modern Egyptian types. You even see this in the heavy Caucasoid influenced Old Kingdom depictions (usually 4th-6th Dynasty).

Varying amount of African influence, but its usually not the dominant component. Akhenaten is known for this, also the majority of the earliest New Kingdom mummies. Again, a minor to moderate component.

Seti has a very 'Levant' phenotype (not outside of the range of Egyptians but not typical). This phenotype seems to increase during the mid-late 19th Dynasty, likely due to increasing Levantine influence. There's some lighter pigmented mummies, but its mostly overblown. The vast majority were black or dark brown haired, some light brown haired. Ramesses may have had red hair (to confirm needs analysis with modern methods), but Yuya had light brown hair, the current color isn't the actual one. He was likely a foreigner from the northern Levant regardless.

There's a bunch of foreign marriages that should also be accounted for, which would change admixture proportions and possibly phenotype. Levantine, Mesopotamian (including Mitanni, which may have had Steppe MLBA admixture), etc.

Also, the art was solidified during the ED-OK period, when the African influence on phenotype was likely higher. Almost 100% of depictions in the first 2 dynasties (if not literally 100%) show significant 'Negroid' influence, and this type of depiction continued down through the Greek period, finally ending during the Roman period when Egyptians began being depicted more realistically.

Tiye is depicted looking like an African-American (hah) as are many depictions from the New Kingdom. Then you look at the mummy and see its not very accurate.

The early Middle Kingdom pharaohs did mix with Nubians and the Negroid influence in art reached its peak there. For them its simply obvious they had notable amounts of SSA admixture. They made that abundantly clear in how they depicted themselves vs servants for instance.
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Just don't make any sweeping statements on the origins of Dynastic Egypt until you have thoroughly tested the remains from Naqada II and III period burials, that's all I'm asking. Because eventually they will get tested and the "archaeogenetic scientific community" will then have to pretend there's nothing special about them ending up being genetically closer to modern Levantines (if not modern Armenians/Iraqi Jews), than to Coptic Egyptians.
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(01-25-2025, 12:48 PM)ilabv Wrote: There's a bunch of foreign marriages that should also be accounted for, which would change admixture proportions and possibly phenotype. Levantine, Mesopotamian (including Mitanni, which may have had Steppe MLBA admixture), etc.


Amenhotep III apparently had mtDNA H2b, which fits perfectly with the evidence that his mother was a Mitanni princess. This seems like evidence that these DNA results are real, as they're difficult to explain otherwise:

[Image: Capture-d-e-cran-2024-04-07-a-10-31-01.png]
"H2b, on the other hand, is a minor branch. It contains several ancient samples from Russia, all basal to the rest of the branch, including one individual from the Yamnaya culture and one from the Late Bronze Age Srubnaya culture, both from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region, and five other Bronze Age samples from east of the Volga river: three from Sintashta and two from Krasnoyarsk. Also in a basal position, there are three modern Russian samples (two from the Altai region) and one Danish sequence. Interestingly, while the vast majority (70%) of H2 modern sequences in our dataset are of European origin, H2b displays a strong South Asian component, with seven samples from Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka. The newly published Sintashta and Middle Bronze Age Krasnoyarsk (Russian) sequences (Narasimhan et al.2018), together with the previously released Yamnaya and Srubnaya, span a period from 5 to 3.5 ka. These, plus the modern South Asian sequences, support our earlier suggestion that H2b was involved in movements east and southwards from the Pontic-Caspian region into South Asia, by documenting its progress eastwards across the Eurasian Steppe. The Sintashta Culture in the Ural Mountains, or a “Sintashta-derived” culture (such as the Andronovo), is thought to have expanded eastwards into Central Asia 3.8 ka, reaching South Asia" 

Silva et al. 2019, Untangling Neolithic and Bronze Age mitochondrial lineages in South Asia
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