01-17-2025, 04:22 PM
(01-17-2025, 04:18 PM)parasar Wrote: Is this the paper being referred to?
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10809863/
No, that predynastic sample came from Gebelein and was half a century older.
Will the Ancient Egyptian samples ever be published?
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01-17-2025, 04:22 PM
(01-17-2025, 04:18 PM)parasar Wrote: Is this the paper being referred to? No, that predynastic sample came from Gebelein and was half a century older.
01-17-2025, 04:47 PM
(01-17-2025, 04:22 PM)FormosanAristocrat Wrote:(01-17-2025, 04:18 PM)parasar Wrote: Is this the paper being referred to? It will probably have high ANA and SSA due to being in the very South of Egypt
01-17-2025, 04:51 PM
It is probable, yes. Though as ilabv stated a few days ago, the readings of it being something akin to 40-50% African in total could as well be a subject of contamination or whatever.
IMO, they should occupy a position between the Christian Nubians and Copts. (01-13-2025, 02:42 AM)ilabv Wrote: I forgot to note, there is also the curious fact that there are fully contaminated samples, that are simply North Italians. It makes this a whole lot clearer. The reason for the poor fits for East Africans (notably populations with less recent Arabian from ~3kya: Somali, Oromo) lay not in the proxies for the people who introduced pastoralism to their ancestors, but the population that adopted it - namely the 'proto-Nilotic' or, how I prefer to refer to them as, Ancestral East Africans. Sudanese7 (+ other modern Nilotic samples) has ~30% Niger-Congo-like ancestry that isn't present in East Africans. It's all to easy to just lump all of SSA into a single mental cluster, but considering how genetically distinct AA-speaking East Africans are from NC-speakers, this makes a massive difference. Incidentally, the simulated coordinates weren't 'discovered' by way of working backwards using Afroasiatic East Africans; the AEA coordinates were simulated using Mota, removing the excess South African HG. It just so happened to work perfectly as a proxy for Nilotes (as their East African component) and for Afroasiatic East Africans. I replicated the run here, only replacing the Sudanese coordinates with AEA, and just look at what it does for the distance. Not to say that the other proxies are perfect, but they work well. The leaker on Twitter himself, when asked, said that the DNA found in Neolithic Upper Egypt is very close to proto-Cushitic. I think that the role Arabian HG played in introducing pastoralism into Africa is way overstated. ------ As for contamination, I recall an R-Pxyz clade found in an Ancient Egyptian actually having a younger coalescence date than the sample itself which is what got the alarm bells ringing initially. Not sure what the consensus is now but yeah people began to become very skeptical of a lot of the older, seemingly out-of-place samples. Very interesting seeing everything come together in your posts. If you aren't on Twitter as you say, it could use someone as well read as you are to educate the biased and the ignorant.
01-18-2025, 12:11 AM
(01-13-2025, 06:15 PM)MuSSA Wrote: The leaker JFD said in a Twitter space already, and judging by the tone this character was very likely ilabv (01-15-2025, 04:33 AM)Horatio McCallister Wrote:(01-13-2025, 06:26 PM)ilabv Wrote:(01-12-2025, 09:44 PM)Horatio McCallister Wrote: So then what makes you so confident that Upper Egyptians are going to be significantly more African than Lower Egyptians if you acknowledge the samples themselves are garbage? Again, if these OK samples are legit than it seems more likely that Naqadans are going to be overwhelming Levantine in origin too and not some heavily admixed native Egyptian HG that adopted agriculture. Huh, where are you getting this idea that Upper Egyptians largely descend from agriculturalists from Lower Egypt, looking at predynastic and early dynastic Upper Egypt their material culture is largely a local development that really doesn't owe much to Lower Egypt. Also, its been established since the late 19th century that their was an appreciable difference between early Upper and Lower Egyptians skulls, with predynastic Upper Egyptians in many analyses, mainly craniometric, being most similar to north Ethio-Semitic peoples and Beja Sudanis/Eritreans, in other analyses, cranial non-metric, they're closest to present day North Africans.
01-18-2025, 12:15 AM
(01-17-2025, 04:51 PM)FormosanAristocrat Wrote: It is probable, yes. Though as ilabv stated a few days ago, the readings of it being something akin to 40-50% African in total could as well be a subject of contamination or whatever. Agreed. I think they'll plot around Mozab/Saharawi.
01-19-2025, 07:48 AM
(01-18-2025, 12:15 AM)TellTheTruth Wrote:(01-17-2025, 04:51 PM)FormosanAristocrat Wrote: It is probable, yes. Though as ilabv stated a few days ago, the readings of it being something akin to 40-50% African in total could as well be a subject of contamination or whatever. I think this is reasonable for the Egypt/Nile HG population (though still distant to them), but after Levant N and later Levant EBA (both of which likely trickled into Upper Egypt), I suspect they'd be pushed a bit genetically north.
01-19-2025, 09:09 PM
(01-19-2025, 07:48 AM)ilabv Wrote:(01-18-2025, 12:15 AM)TellTheTruth Wrote:(01-17-2025, 04:51 PM)FormosanAristocrat Wrote: It is probable, yes. Though as ilabv stated a few days ago, the readings of it being something akin to 40-50% African in total could as well be a subject of contamination or whatever. Have the unreleased, low-coverage Egyptian hunter-gatherer samples yielded yDNA and / or mtDNA? If so, which haplogroups? And are they notably distinct from the two Natufian samples that have yielded DNA?
@ilabv I really enjoy your posts. Have you heard anything about the retesting of the Amarna royals?
If I understand you correctly, in the MK, northern and southern Egyptian profiles converged, with only minor clinal variation. So the average Upper Egyptian from this period would have about 10% Dinka-like ancestry and about 5% ANA via Nile HG (this Mesolithic HG component mostly having been diluted by Neolithic & Bronze Age Levantine)? And Lower Egyptians then would be about 0-5% Dinka + 5% ANA? So MK Egyptians as whole would range from 5-15% SSA? Are none (excluding Nubians) from the MK higher than this? Including those from the southernmost regions of Upper Egypt (e.g., Thebes)? And no difference from MK to NK? BTW, you mentioned this "mixed-Negroid" phenotype portrayed in some Dynastic and OK statuary. What are your thoughts on depictions of the 18th Dynasty? Many of these individuals (e.g., Amenhotep III, Tiye, Akhenaten) seem to resemble Nubians based on these depictions. Egyptologists have long speculated about potential Nubian influence within this dynasty, usually tracing it to Tao and his family. Do you think there is any basis for this? After all, Egyptians were known to heavily employ Nubian mercenaries at various periods. It doesn't seem that outrageous to suggest that some might have risen to positions of power and intermarried into the Upper Egyptian elite. Or do you think this is just phenotypic variation? Certainly, that seems possible. Some modern Upper Egyptians could arguably pass as Nubians, but then again, they have a fair bit more SSA than the ancient population (AFAIAA, this look seems to be less common among Copts). In particular, this sculpture of Amenhotep III stands out to me. This was created by Thutmose, the master sculptor responsible for Nefertiti’s Berlin bust. It appears to be a portrait study done with Greco-Roman-style realism and shows continuity with other depictions, such as this statue unearthed from his funerary temple in Luxor. One can find more “Caucasoid” looking depictions, but as these are rarer and show less continuity with other portrait quality works, it’s probably a safe bet that these are more idealized, and this racially admixed look depicted in the two works below is a better reflection of his actual appearance, whatever his genetic profile may have been. Assuming this isn’t just phenotypic variation, I don’t imagine there’s a high probability that any of the Amarna royals were full-blooded Nubians or anything like that. If some of their ancestors were Nubians, it’s unlikely they would have completely maintained this profile, even with all the incest. But it wouldn’t shock me if some of them had a sort of intermediate Upper Egyptian/Nubian profile with like 25-30% SSA. What do you think?
01-24-2025, 06:42 PM
Some thoughts:
I am mostly sure many in Egypt today, regardless of region, would resemble Amenhotep III. In fact, there are statues from Lower Egypt constructed in historical times that bear stark similarities despite depicting entirely different figures. The same could be said for Akhenaten. Finally, your proposition that they possess lineages from Nubians is entirely likely, if not plausible. Seqenenre Tao hailed from Thebes, and ever since the advent of the 11th dynasty, a presence of C-Group Nubians in Hierakonpolis was conspicuously noted. With the intrinsic regional proximity and shared ancestral ties since at least the Neolithic (with the only variable being proportions), it was of no surprise that he'd be reminiscent of those who share "Nubian lineages". There are theories suggesting that the 12th or 13th dynasty contributed partially to the founders of the Theban dynasty, although this is mostly a posited facet among the "fandom" last I checked. Still, this remains a possibility too if we assume the upper class of the Thebaid received no major discontinuity. Thuya, who was the mother of Tiye, was proposed to have been a descendant or relative in some form, of Ahmose Nefetari. The latter, was noted to have Nubian-like features and was mostly depicted with pitch black skin on murals. Egyptians used the greatly exaggerated dark skin to showcase a person's Nubian or southern lineage but also to symbolize the fertility of the Nile and therefore signifying said figure's "holiness". These are equally likely and can appear independently or concomitantly.
01-25-2025, 12:38 AM
Thuya? This gal?
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I would agree that Thuya's mummy does not look Nubian. Yuya's certainly does not (arguably he looks more Semitic than Egyptian, but this look would exist within Egyptian variation). But it's important to note that the lighter hair coloring is almost certainly due to the mummification process, and not all Nubians have kinky hair like Maiherpri.
Tiye's mummy also does not look Nubian, either, and yet she is consistently portrayed with this racially admixed phenotype. It isn't just the Berlin bust. Her plastic cast portrays her with similar features, as do other depictions, which makes me think it's a relatively good indication of what she looked like, although obviously she would be lighter than this. The Northern Sudanese BBC anchor, Zeinab Badawi is almost her exact double, down to the severe expression, and she also has the same soft, wavy hair as Tiye's mummy. It's also worth pointing out that the Gebelein mummy would likewise not be judged to have any notable SSA influence based on its appearance, but it would seem that isn't the case.
01-25-2025, 12:48 PM
Most of the New Kingdom royal mummies look like robust versions of modern Egyptian types. You even see this in the heavy Caucasoid influenced Old Kingdom depictions (usually 4th-6th Dynasty).
Varying amount of African influence, but its usually not the dominant component. Akhenaten is known for this, also the majority of the earliest New Kingdom mummies. Again, a minor to moderate component. Seti has a very 'Levant' phenotype (not outside of the range of Egyptians but not typical). This phenotype seems to increase during the mid-late 19th Dynasty, likely due to increasing Levantine influence. There's some lighter pigmented mummies, but its mostly overblown. The vast majority were black or dark brown haired, some light brown haired. Ramesses may have had red hair (to confirm needs analysis with modern methods), but Yuya had light brown hair, the current color isn't the actual one. He was likely a foreigner from the northern Levant regardless. There's a bunch of foreign marriages that should also be accounted for, which would change admixture proportions and possibly phenotype. Levantine, Mesopotamian (including Mitanni, which may have had Steppe MLBA admixture), etc. Also, the art was solidified during the ED-OK period, when the African influence on phenotype was likely higher. Almost 100% of depictions in the first 2 dynasties (if not literally 100%) show significant 'Negroid' influence, and this type of depiction continued down through the Greek period, finally ending during the Roman period when Egyptians began being depicted more realistically. Tiye is depicted looking like an African-American (hah) as are many depictions from the New Kingdom. Then you look at the mummy and see its not very accurate. The early Middle Kingdom pharaohs did mix with Nubians and the Negroid influence in art reached its peak there. For them its simply obvious they had notable amounts of SSA admixture. They made that abundantly clear in how they depicted themselves vs servants for instance.
01-25-2025, 05:51 PM
Just don't make any sweeping statements on the origins of Dynastic Egypt until you have thoroughly tested the remains from Naqada II and III period burials, that's all I'm asking. Because eventually they will get tested and the "archaeogenetic scientific community" will then have to pretend there's nothing special about them ending up being genetically closer to modern Levantines (if not modern Armenians/Iraqi Jews), than to Coptic Egyptians.
(01-25-2025, 12:48 PM)ilabv Wrote: There's a bunch of foreign marriages that should also be accounted for, which would change admixture proportions and possibly phenotype. Levantine, Mesopotamian (including Mitanni, which may have had Steppe MLBA admixture), etc. Amenhotep III apparently had mtDNA H2b, which fits perfectly with the evidence that his mother was a Mitanni princess. This seems like evidence that these DNA results are real, as they're difficult to explain otherwise: ![]() "H2b, on the other hand, is a minor branch. It contains several ancient samples from Russia, all basal to the rest of the branch, including one individual from the Yamnaya culture and one from the Late Bronze Age Srubnaya culture, both from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region, and five other Bronze Age samples from east of the Volga river: three from Sintashta and two from Krasnoyarsk. Also in a basal position, there are three modern Russian samples (two from the Altai region) and one Danish sequence. Interestingly, while the vast majority (70%) of H2 modern sequences in our dataset are of European origin, H2b displays a strong South Asian component, with seven samples from Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka. The newly published Sintashta and Middle Bronze Age Krasnoyarsk (Russian) sequences (Narasimhan et al.2018), together with the previously released Yamnaya and Srubnaya, span a period from 5 to 3.5 ka. These, plus the modern South Asian sequences, support our earlier suggestion that H2b was involved in movements east and southwards from the Pontic-Caspian region into South Asia, by documenting its progress eastwards across the Eurasian Steppe. The Sintashta Culture in the Ural Mountains, or a “Sintashta-derived” culture (such as the Andronovo), is thought to have expanded eastwards into Central Asia 3.8 ka, reaching South Asia" Silva et al. 2019, Untangling Neolithic and Bronze Age mitochondrial lineages in South Asia |
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