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Languages of France in 1863 and 1836
#1
Map - https://i.imgur.com/J81DgJf.png

[Image: J81DgJf.png]
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#2
Moselle and Southern Haut Rhin were mostly German speaking still, definitely more than 50 %. Many might have been bilingual though and could therefore be counted either way, especially in the towns and cities, where more actual French lived. But on the countryside they were still largeley German.
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#3
The north-west corner is a Brethany, supposed to be settled by Celts from british isles.
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#4
(10-16-2024, 02:12 PM)sirdan Wrote: The north-west corner is a Brethany, supposed to be settled by Celts from british isles.

Yes true, but also it is now thought there are links between there and the British Isles predating the flight of some celts from the Anglo-Saxons c. 6th century AD.
Regarding the south west, this is explained by Basque, then south central, Catalan, and all over the south, Occitan or langue d'oc or lenga d'oc, maybe a bit of Italian in the far east side also Savoyard, I am sure there are others!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoyard_dialect
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#5
(10-16-2024, 05:31 PM)Rufus191 Wrote:
(10-16-2024, 02:12 PM)sirdan Wrote: The north-west corner is a Brethany, supposed to be settled by Celts from british isles.

Yes true, but also it is now thought there are links between there and the British Isles predating the flight of some celts from the Anglo-Saxons c. 6th century AD.
Regarding the south west, this is explained by Basque, then south central, Catalan, and all over the south, Occitan or langue d'oc or lenga d'oc, maybe a bit of Italian in the far east side also Savoyard, I am sure there are others!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoyard_dialect

Yes, but the Breton language comes from the wave of immigration from the 3rd to the 6th century.
And it's probable that they did not flee the Anglo-Saxons, because we note at this time (visible in the haplogroups of the Y chromosome) a formidable demographic expansion of the Bretons forcing some to immigrate to another land...
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#6
(10-17-2024, 08:55 AM)Tolan Wrote:
(10-16-2024, 05:31 PM)Rufus191 Wrote:
(10-16-2024, 02:12 PM)sirdan Wrote: The north-west corner is a Brethany, supposed to be settled by Celts from british isles.

Yes true, but also it is now thought there are links between there and the British Isles predating the flight of some celts from the Anglo-Saxons c. 6th century AD.
Regarding the south west, this is explained by Basque, then south central, Catalan, and all over the south, Occitan or langue d'oc or lenga d'oc, maybe a bit of Italian in the far east side also Savoyard, I am sure there are others!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoyard_dialect

Yes, but the Breton language comes from the wave of immigration from the 3rd to the 6th century.
And it's probable that they did not flee the Anglo-Saxons, because we note at this time (visible in the haplogroups of the Y chromosome) a formidable demographic expansion of the Bretons forcing some to immigrate to another land...
Thanks Tolan, I had not been aware of that aspect of it, maybe some famines in southern (now England) or interfactional fighting between other British tribes also precipitated the move?
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#7
In my (very isolated) area in the old mountains of Auvergne (dark red on the map above), though people spoke to each other in the local Occitan dialect, everyone - repeat : everyone - had a fully-working command of the French language in 1863. Long before 1863 - since at least the 16C judging from what documents I could lay my hands on - French was the language of priests, lawyers and notaries, and was a sine qua non prerequisite to conduct business or quarrel in courts of justice. Everyone round here was at least partly bilingual already in 1600.

So I think the purport of the label "Fully non-francophone area" ought to be more precisely defined.

Immi uiros rios toutias rias
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#8
In Alsace, at least, my understanding is that in the mid-19th century political administrators and bourgeois would've spoken French on a daily basis, and a minority would've had some level of familiarity with it from school. However, the Alsatian dialect would've been the native language for almost everyone and the primary daily language for the vast majority--as some form of Alemannic would have been since the early Middle Ages. An older distant relative told me that French wasn't widely known and used by most until after World War II, when it was "imposed" on them "like a foreign language"--though he doesn't consider himself German.

Somewhat relatedly, below is a picture I took of a Revolution-era "freyheit altar" (freedom altar/autel de la liberté).


.jpg   freyheit1.jpg (Size: 69.41 KB / Downloads: 99)
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