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Niger-Congo Ancestry In East African Peoples
#46
(01-08-2025, 02:25 AM)Inquirer Wrote:
(01-07-2025, 08:00 AM)Biormalu Wrote:
(12-31-2024, 03:01 AM)Inquirer Wrote: The model below has distances from 0.07 to 0.10. The distances aren't very large when considering that what they reflect are divergences in ancestry that date back to at least the Mesolithic (Green Sahara Period).

[Image: attachment.php?aid=3095]

In other words, what matters is that ~50% of the ancestry in Nilotes pulls towards Mota and ~50% pulls towards Niger-Congo peoples. This indicates that the Dinka descend from a lineage that was closely related to Mota, as well as a lineage that was closely related to Niger-Congo peoples.

This is reflected in their haplogroups: they carry yDNA B-M60, as do the Hadza (in whom Mota-like ancestry peaks); and they carry mtDNA L1 and L2, as do Niger-Congo peoples.
although I dont deny some Dinkas have some west african like admix, it doesn't really make sense to me to use mota as the measure for how East African ancestrally the dinka are, because they are the more genetically East African shifted ones, this also doesn't really take into account the sahg like ancestry mota carries or even little bit of eurasian. Even more interesting is that East African nilotic (what folks online call "proto nilotic" even tho proto nilotic is really more of a linguistic term) like ancestry and west african ancestry act like polar opposites. Which is another thing that makes me skeptical abt the idea that nilotes like the Dinka or Nuer are "significantly mixed w niger Congos". I made a run with the proto mota cord and I had some interesting results comparing my own g25 cords to measure east African ancestry in mota vs the proto mota cord which was supposed to be the simulated version of mota.  

Here were the cords I used: ETH_Mota,-0.515619,0.041637,-0.003394,-0.001292,-0.00277,-0.011713,0.054992,-0.052382,0.090604,-0.094581,-0.013478,0.003297,-0.031962,-0.001927,0.023615,-0.031291,0.031944,0.043454,-0.002388,-0.00963,-0.001248,0.00643,-0.005176,-0.003133,0.004071
Yoruba:HGDP00944,-0.628304,0.061947,0.021496,0.01615,-0.001539,0.003347,-0.042067,0.049152,-0.050108,0.030616,-0.000974,0.003897,0.023191,-0.006468,0.00475,-0.004773,0.005737,-0.007601,0.00729,-0.002876,0.004991,0.000495,-0.006409,0.002771,-0.005029

(Mines) I am dinka btw, lol 
BiorMalual_scaled,-0.574807,0.05687,-0.000754,-0.015827,-0.007386,0.001116,-0.018331,0.017307,0.087127,-0.119182,-0.020299,0.026377,-0.049207,0.001514,0.014115,-0.008088,0.02386,-0.012162,0.023128,-0.015883,0.000499,0.000247,-0.003697,-0.003494,0.004071

I've always considered Mota-like ancestry to be more East African shifted than Nilotic ancestry, because it's farther from Niger-Congo peoples (West Africans & Bantus) than Nilotic samples are according to G25 and PCA charts that I've seen. For example, in Figure 1a of Llorente et al (2015), you can see that Mota is farther from Niger-Congo peoples than Nilotic peoples are. Additionally, Mota's homeland and those of the peoples with the most Mota-like ancestry are geographically farther from the homeland of Niger-Congo peoples (West Africa) than the homelands of Nilotic peoples.

I think that during the Green Sahara period, before the ancestors of Niger-Congo peoples migrated into West Africa, that there occurred an introgression of Proto-Niger-Congo ancestry into Proto-Nilotic peoples via Proto-Niger-Congo females; this is consistent with Nilotic peoples carrying Maternal Haplogroups L1 & L2, which are carried predominantly by Niger-Congo peoples. Alternatively, perhaps Proto-Nilotic peoples took Bantu females when Bantus arrived in East Africa during the Bantu Expansion.

A good way to determine which scenario likely occurred would be to determine the divergence dates of the L1 and L2 branches that Nilotic peoples carry relative to those that Niger-Congo peoples carry.

The thing is it doesn't work like that, if you take the proto mota cord which is just an exaggerated East African shifter version of mota with other ancery like teh Khoi like ancestrsy and the little bit of eurasian they have, the dinka & other (western) nilotes score higher. 
    (mines is the top cord and this is compared to other nilotes and surmic speakers) 
    (pca showing proto mota cord in relation to other african pops, as you can see, nilotes cluster closest to it) 
    (here is mota measured, and even here if I wanted to take the proto mota coord as an actual real serious sample, I could accuse them of having west african ancestry) 

Coordinates: 
Source: 
Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
Paleo_African(Lateral_Click:Ju_hoan_North:B_Ju_hoa n_North-4),-0.619198,0.062963,0.023759,0.027455,0.000615,-0.002789,0.274022,-0.217376,0.022089,0.010387,0.007795,-0.08977,-0.034043,0.016652,0.03393,-0.045346,0.066365,0.58036,-0.194958,0.010005,-0.077738,-0.005564,0.025512,-0.000482,0.003353
Proto-Mota (Without SA + Eurasian),-0.56272837,0.04715103,0.00844811,-0.01816994,-0.00767743,-0.01277314,-0.01311748,0.00252006,0.130011,-0.15324418,-0.02188116,0.01151451,-0.05030099,-0.00063816,0.02455798,-0.04415771,0.03729095,-0.00435367,0.03069317,-0.01649585,0.01409658,0.02152539,-0.00447418,-0.00153823,-0.00535147
Wolof_Gambia,-0.60458366,0.065211411,0.017657384,0.0080461607,0.00069514286,0.0074154911,-0.039200714,0.041233848,-0.027979616,0.024818268,0.0046323929,-0.0012550982,0.018793625,-0.0016097054,0.013528357,-0.012294143,0.010811384,-0.0021718036,-0.0038562232,-0.0014862054,-0.0024276339,-0.0054108839,0.0026597857,-0.0014341161,0.001932


Target: ETH_Mota,-0.515619,0.041637,-0.003394,-0.001292,-0.00277,-0.011713,0.054992,-0.052382,0.090604,-0.094581,-0.013478,0.003297,-0.031962,-0.001927,0.023615,-0.031291,0.031944,0.043454,-0.002388,-0.00963,-0.001248,0.00643,-0.005176,-0.003133,0.004071

Nilote cords: 
 
Source: Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
ETH_Mota,-0.515619,0.041637,-0.003394,-0.001292,-0.00277,-0.011713,0.054992,-0.052382,0.090604,-0.094581,-0.013478,0.003297,-0.031962,-0.001927,0.023615,-0.031291,0.031944,0.043454,-0.002388,-0.00963,-0.001248,0.00643,-0.005176,-0.003133,0.004071
Proto-Mota (Without SA + Eurasian),-0.56272837,0.04715103,0.00844811,-0.01816994,-0.00767743,-0.01277314,-0.01311748,0.00252006,0.130011,-0.15324418,-0.02188116,0.01151451,-0.05030099,-0.00063816,0.02455798,-0.04415771,0.03729095,-0.00435367,0.03069317,-0.01649585,0.01409658,0.02152539,-0.00447418,-0.00153823,-0.00535147Yoruba:HGDP00944,-0.628304,0.061947,0.021496,0.01615,-0.001539,0.003347,-0.042067,0.049152,-0.050108,0.030616,-0.000974,0.003897,0.023191,-0.006468,0.00475,-0.004773,0.005737,-0.007601,0.00729,-0.002876,0.004991,0.000495,-0.006409,0.002771,-0.005029
Morocco_UP_Taforalt_(Iberomaurusian),-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
Bantu_S.E.:KSP178,-0.635133,0.064994,0.020365,0.019703,-0.00277,0.008088,0.038307,-0.021461,-0.02168,0.009841,0.002598,-0.015137,-0.012339,0.003165,-0.006922,0.001326,-0.000913,0.068158,-0.030042,0.002501,-0.001123,-0.000989,0.002588,0.006507,0.002275
Mbuti:A_Mbuti-5.DG,-0.646515,0.05687,0.029038,0.03876,-0.001231,0.003626,0.371787,-0.297449,0.012271,0.03098,-0.006983,0.222552,0.125916,-0.001514,0.017644,-0.005038,0.001434,-0.05777,0.006159,-0.002501,0.009733,0.004699,-0.005546,-0.005181,0.000958
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954,0.053497,0.072103,-0.150848,0.004199,-0.126177,0.024542,0.022091,0.000462,-0.086514,-0.05376,-0.00341,-0.005395,0.008176,-0.000963,0.02823,0.043755,-0.01356,0.006334,0.011816,-0.04127,0.003494,-0.030048,-0.005669,-0.036391,0.025866
Wolof_Gambia,-0.60458366,0.065211411,0.017657384,0.0080461607,0.00069514286,0.0074154911,-0.039200714,0.041233848,-0.027979616,0.024818268,0.0046323929,-0.0012550982,0.018793625,-0.0016097054,0.013528357,-0.012294143,0.010811384,-0.0021718036,-0.0038562232,-0.0014862054,-0.0024276339,-0.0054108839,0.0026597857,-0.0014341161,0.001932

Targets: 

Bari,-0.5859045,0.0528075,0.00405425,-0.0056525,-0.00200025,-0.00237025,0.006874,0.005019,0.075367,-0.0960385,-0.01737575,0.0251025,-0.04073325,-0.000929,0.004309,-0.0153475,0.01786275,-0.01108525,0.01901175,-0.01913425,0.0003745,0.00707925,-0.005269,-0.00298225,0.00272425
Kakwa,-0.591121,0.051792,-0.001886,-0.0017226667,0.000513,-0.0011156667,0.014492667,-0.0054613333,0.058766667,-0.074717,-0.016401333,0.027325667,-0.025668667,-0.00050466667,0.011536333,-0.018297667,0.009344,-0.0079393333,0.018100333,-0.018008667,0.001913,0.0061413333,-0.0028756667,-0.0060246667,0.0036723333
Shilluk,-0.57471192,0.056362,0.0010686667,-0.0094208333,-0.0018721667,-0.0038811667,-0.015334667,0.017960667,0.080088083,-0.097724083,-0.018282167,0.023966083,-0.039184417,-0.00068816667,0.0070461667,-0.0142755,0.021035333,-0.012531667,0.018749917,-0.019426167,-0.0016221667,0.0039568333,-0.00450875,-0.002701,0.0028738333
Shilluk_o1,-0.600986,0.055854,0.007542,0.00323,0,-0.002231,-0.009165,0.014769,0.041723,-0.05704,-0.018675,0.021581,-0.023637,-0.000688,0.005565,-0.012729,0.012908,-0.011655,0.016592,-0.014382,0.001497,0.000371,0.00493,-0.002892,0.001557
Shilluk_o2,-0.54862733,0.062963,-0.00062866667,-0.013243,-0.0022566667,-0.0064146667,-0.015902667,0.015460667,0.076696667,-0.096706667,-0.018783333,0.024128333,-0.033201,-0.0034403333,0.006786,-0.0073366667,0.02386,-0.012162333,0.017472,-0.013464667,0.000499,0.009315,-0.0010266667,-0.0018476667,0.001956
South_Sudanese,-0.5783352,0.0534168,0.0014706,-0.0062016,-0.0028928,-0.0022312,-0.0123382,0.0149303,0.0820139,-0.0985168,-0.0202012,0.0239187,-0.0418332,-0.0002479,0.0091205,-0.0165207,0.0197793,-0.0124281,0.0211298,-0.0201345,-0.0010605,0.0040062,-0.0035494,-0.0027713,0.0044906
South_Sudanese_o1,-0.584292,0.057546667,0.0077936667,-0.00075366667,-0.0025643333,-0.0011156667,-0.0028986667,0.009615,0.058698333,-0.075992333,-0.019486667,0.020232,-0.028889667,-0.00156,0.0040263333,-0.014142667,0.014777,-0.011486333,0.019232,-0.015090667,0.00033266667,0.004575,-0.004067,-0.005824,0.0025546667
South_Sudanese_o2,-0.604401,0.054839,0.015462,0.010013,-0.00277,0.003068,-0.005405,0.011538,0.021066,-0.035172,-0.004547,0.013488,-0.014717,-0.000275,0.005972,-0.010077,0.011995,-0.003041,0.005656,-0.012881,-0.000125,0.008285,-0.000986,-0.003494,-0.000599
South_Sudanese_o3,-0.528139,0.05687,-0.00792,-0.020349,0,-0.006414,-0.015276,0.016615,0.083446,-0.10023,-0.0177,0.015286,-0.034935,0.00234,0.005022,-0.016574,0.015907,-0.008742,0.016718,-0.016883,-0.000374,0.008161,-0.001356,-0.003494,0.002634
Alur_(low_res),-0.6008722,0.0563619,0.0082212,0.0111435,-0.0028929,0.0044344,0.0253108,-0.0118379,0.032499,-0.0456319,-0.01252,0.0250876,-0.0266549,-0.0022157,-0.0043296,-0.0033678,0.0011345,-0.0121494,0.0061843,-0.0089419,-0.0017971,-0.0010015,-0.0042273,-7.24E-05,0.000431
Anuak_Ethiopia,-0.57297289,0.053484611,0.0013827778,-0.0069983333,-0.0020687222,-0.0027734444,-0.0084210556,0.012845722,0.078468778,-0.096726889,-0.0198205,0.023196056,-0.039147333,-0.00080283333,0.0086032222,-0.016720944,0.021028056,-0.0083192222,0.019664667,-0.018946611,6.25E-05,0.0050903889,-0.0049161667,-0.0026375,0.0046167778
Dinka,-0.57768787,0.052839375,0.001414125,-0.00767125,-0.002971625,-0.0024228125,-0.013101938,0.015944094,0.079221063,-0.097997438,-0.020516781,0.023374438,-0.041666719,-0.00021940625,0.0086055937,-0.017464594,0.019451687,-0.011956188,0.020924844,-0.020603594,0.00076034375,0.0036594375,-0.003994,-0.0016003437,0.0059088438
Dinka_o1,-0.5850506,0.0532138,0.0067882,-0.005491,-0.0017234,-0.0011714,-0.0103404,0.015461,0.0673292,-0.082079,-0.0185448,0.0208314,-0.036184,0.001156,0.0076002,-0.0178466,0.0179668,-0.008108,0.0172204,-0.0179334,0.000125,0.0072956,-0.0077648,-0.00588,0.0040474
Dinka_o2,-0.594157,0.058901,0.010559,0.007429,0.000615,-0.001116,-0.011751,0.011076,0.03436,-0.045741,-0.010068,0.017834,-0.015015,0.000138,0.003393,-0.010872,0.015776,-0.006588,0.007668,-0.011506,-0.002496,-0.003215,0.002588,-0.003253,-0.010059
Dinka_o3,-0.547489,0.059916,-0.001508,-0.010336,0,-0.00502,-0.019976,0.017768,0.074447,-0.090571,-0.012829,0.017834,-0.036719,0.003028,0.002986,-0.008618,0.020079,-0.014949,0.018101,-0.017383,-0.000998,-0.000247,-0.006286,-0.006386,0.000958
Nuer,-0.5769205,0.054258429,0.00018871429,-0.0083749286,-0.0022201429,-0.0052791429,-0.012505929,0.015015786,0.0868495,-0.10521529,-0.021597786,0.024556714,-0.045681214,-0.0015926429,0.0074257857,-0.016242286,0.024055786,-0.012388286,0.018890571,-0.019518286,-0.00097157143,0.003692,-0.0057575714,-0.0036147857,0.0040628571
Nuer_o,-0.580498,0.049761,0.003017,-0.005814,-0.002154,-0.000558,0.01034,0.004384,0.065857,-0.092029,-0.01023,0.021581,-0.028394,-0.000275,0.002986,-0.020817,0.017732,-0.006588,0.013827,-0.02126,-0.004118,0.006925,-0.009983,-0.004579,0.008143
Luo_Kenya,-0.60141275,0.0635975,0.016734625,0.006419625,-0.002846625,0.00721625,-0.01183875,0.0153745,0.008232,-0.026902625,-0.007754,0.01221425,-0.0305125,0.000842875,-0.02320825,0.014336125,-0.016461,-0.002692125,-0.006614875,0.001063125,0.00154425,0.00058725,0.002680625,0.001687,-0.001886
Sengwer,-0.481472,0.0655015,-0.004148,-0.0289085,-0.000308,-0.014642,0.0003525,-0.001154,0.0989895,-0.096767,-0.017132,0.012139,-0.0315905,0.0002065,0.0097715,-0.0161755,0.0084095,-0.0039905,0.015461,-0.0165705,-0.000125,0.001175,-0.004252,0.001928,0.0036525
Ogiek_Kenya,-0.4336665,0.0751495,-0.009051,-0.038114,0.004924,-0.018407,0.0010575,-0.0008075,0.0918315,-0.0774505,-0.0107985,0.0077185,-0.0228195,0.0017205,0.0086185,-0.0177005,0.009583,0.002597,0.008799,-0.013819,0.006114,0.003586,-0.003944,-0.003434,0.0011375
Masai_Kenya,-0.44062189,0.075713333,-0.011648667,-0.036355444,-0.00424,-0.018561556,-0.0069195556,0.004282,0.098989556,-0.091765889,-0.016419333,0.0060778889,-0.026511,-0.00030577778,0.013089444,-0.018665667,0.023802333,-0.0048563333,0.018603333,-0.020106778,-0.00049922222,0.00043977778,-0.004341,-0.0034807778,0.0056281111
"Datog",-0.3885163,0.0802267,-0.019987,-0.0509263,0.0013333,-0.0213817,-0.0038383,0.0013847,0.1043753,-0.0793333,-0.0126123,-0.0027473,-0.0179383,-0.002982,0.015427,-0.0163083,0.0242947,-0.0021957,0.0102653,-0.0105463,0.001456,0.003751,-0.0036977,-0.0044987,-0.0036323

There is a theory I seen in the Somali dna spaces where they suggest nilotes received around 20% of west African ancestry after a separation from what they call proto nilotes (they really just mean mesolithic sudanese populations), based off of this proto mota coordinate, but I even made a more East African shifted coord than proto mota on g25 out of a Yoruba coordinate which (South Sudanese western)nilotes would still have more than mota in. 

    (theory) 

    (exaggerated East African shift Yoruba coordinate compared to africans) 

    (here as you can see how redundant it is, I can make the same exact claim that "proto nilotic" received 20% west African ancestry based off of these results) 

Coordinates: 
Source: Exaggerated_East_African_Yoruban,-0.528864,0.058386,-0.021246,-0.037764,-0.001650,-0.017259,-0.025866,0.019837,0.196249,-0.196291,-0.035496,0.027437,-0.066268,-0.013962,0.030353,-0.035485,0.033099,-0.010086,0.012198,-0.029724,-0.007973,-0.006205,0.004803,-0.007560,0.006319
Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
Paleo_African(Lateral_Click:Ju_hoan_North:B_Ju_hoa n_North-4),-0.619198,0.062963,0.023759,0.027455,0.000615,-0.002789,0.274022,-0.217376,0.022089,0.010387,0.007795,-0.08977,-0.034043,0.016652,0.03393,-0.045346,0.066365,0.58036,-0.194958,0.010005,-0.077738,-0.005564,0.025512,-0.000482,0.003353
Wolof_Gambia,-0.60458366,0.065211411,0.017657384,0.0080461607,0.00069514286,0.0074154911,-0.039200714,0.041233848,-0.027979616,0.024818268,0.0046323929,-0.0012550982,0.018793625,-0.0016097054,0.013528357,-0.012294143,0.010811384,-0.0021718036,-0.0038562232,-0.0014862054,-0.0024276339,-0.0054108839,0.0026597857,-0.0014341161,0.001932

Target: 
Proto-Mota(WithoutSA+Eurasian),-0.56272837,0.04715103,0.00844811,-0.01816994,-0.00767743,-0.01277314,-0.01311748,0.00252006,0.130011,-0.15324418,-0.02188116,0.01151451,-0.05030099,-0.00063816,0.02455798,-0.04415771,0.03729095,-0.00435367,0.03069317,-0.01649585,0.01409658,0.02152539,-0.00447418,-0.00153823,-0.00535147
Sudanese:SUDANESE7,-0.571392,0.046714,-0.007165,-0.007429,-0.005232,-0.002789,-0.00799,0.018922,0.0904,-0.108977,-0.018512,0.020831,-0.047125,0.000688,0.013165,-0.023734,0.021644,-0.012035,0.026145,-0.023261,-0.000998,0.004822,-0.000986,-0.001687,0.003712

The thing is that since the East African ancestry in nilote is polar opposite to west african ancestry, the more exagreatted shifts towards the eastern cline I make, the more west african like ancestry the previous cords take. So Nilotes are pretty much the most East African genetically you can get & niger Congo like ancestry id argue is more of a recent thing. My own coordinate I got from illustrative id say is a proof of this because you can have certain dinka sections that had more contact w central sudanic and other non nilotic groups within South Sudan, which is what I suspect is the case for the academic dinka sample which I assume are from Dinkas from the western parts of south sudan (western Dinkas for the largest dinka section, while im eastern dinka). 


    (my results in comparison to other nilote samples (sudanese7 used as the reference) 

coordinates 
Source: Levant_Natufian,0.01935,0.135065,-0.039221,-0.135984,0.026774,-0.076137,-0.019036,-0.024691,0.100626,-0.008018,0.02858,-0.019633,0.067343,0.001651,0.022801,0.02612,-0.0103,0.006714,-0.018101,0.041395,-0.004118,-0.003215,-0.014297,-0.011206,0.011975
ETH_Mota,-0.515619,0.041637,-0.003394,-0.001292,-0.00277,-0.011713,0.054992,-0.052382,0.090604,-0.094581,-0.013478,0.003297,-0.031962,-0.001927,0.023615,-0.031291,0.031944,0.043454,-0.002388,-0.00963,-0.001248,0.00643,-0.005176,-0.003133,0.004071
Sudanese:SUDANESE7,-0.571392,0.046714,-0.007165,-0.007429,-0.005232,-0.002789,-0.00799,0.018922,0.0904,-0.108977,-0.018512,0.020831,-0.047125,0.000688,0.013165,-0.023734,0.021644,-0.012035,0.026145,-0.023261,-0.000998,0.004822,-0.000986,-0.001687,0.003712
Yoruba:HGDP00944,-0.628304,0.061947,0.021496,0.01615,-0.001539,0.003347,-0.042067,0.049152,-0.050108,0.030616,-0.000974,0.003897,0.023191,-0.006468,0.00475,-0.004773,0.005737,-0.007601,0.00729,-0.002876,0.004991,0.000495,-0.006409,0.002771,-0.005029
Morocco_UP_Taforalt_(Iberomaurusian),-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
Bantu_S.E.:KSP178,-0.635133,0.064994,0.020365,0.019703,-0.00277,0.008088,0.038307,-0.021461,-0.02168,0.009841,0.002598,-0.015137,-0.012339,0.003165,-0.006922,0.001326,-0.000913,0.068158,-0.030042,0.002501,-0.001123,-0.000989,0.002588,0.006507,0.002275
Mbuti:A_Mbuti-5.DG,-0.646515,0.05687,0.029038,0.03876,-0.001231,0.003626,0.371787,-0.297449,0.012271,0.03098,-0.006983,0.222552,0.125916,-0.001514,0.017644,-0.005038,0.001434,-0.05777,0.006159,-0.002501,0.009733,0.004699,-0.005546,-0.005181,0.000958
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954,0.053497,0.072103,-0.150848,0.004199,-0.126177,0.024542,0.022091,0.000462,-0.086514,-0.05376,-0.00341,-0.005395,0.008176,-0.000963,0.02823,0.043755,-0.01356,0.006334,0.011816,-0.04127,0.003494,-0.030048,-0.005669,-0.036391,0.025866
Wolof_Gambia,-0.60458366,0.065211411,0.017657384,0.0080461607,0.00069514286,0.0074154911,-0.039200714,0.041233848,-0.027979616,0.024818268,0.0046323929,-0.0012550982,0.018793625,-0.0016097054,0.013528357,-0.012294143,0.010811384,-0.0021718036,-0.0038562232,-0.0014862054,-0.0024276339,-0.0054108839,0.0026597857,-0.0014341161,0.001932


Tagets: Bari,-0.5859045,0.0528075,0.00405425,-0.0056525,-0.00200025,-0.00237025,0.006874,0.005019,0.075367,-0.0960385,-0.01737575,0.0251025,-0.04073325,-0.000929,0.004309,-0.0153475,0.01786275,-0.01108525,0.01901175,-0.01913425,0.0003745,0.00707925,-0.005269,-0.00298225,0.00272425
Kakwa,-0.591121,0.051792,-0.001886,-0.0017226667,0.000513,-0.0011156667,0.014492667,-0.0054613333,0.058766667,-0.074717,-0.016401333,0.027325667,-0.025668667,-0.00050466667,0.011536333,-0.018297667,0.009344,-0.0079393333,0.018100333,-0.018008667,0.001913,0.0061413333,-0.0028756667,-0.0060246667,0.0036723333
Shilluk,-0.57471192,0.056362,0.0010686667,-0.0094208333,-0.0018721667,-0.0038811667,-0.015334667,0.017960667,0.080088083,-0.097724083,-0.018282167,0.023966083,-0.039184417,-0.00068816667,0.0070461667,-0.0142755,0.021035333,-0.012531667,0.018749917,-0.019426167,-0.0016221667,0.0039568333,-0.00450875,-0.002701,0.0028738333
Shilluk_o1,-0.600986,0.055854,0.007542,0.00323,0,-0.002231,-0.009165,0.014769,0.041723,-0.05704,-0.018675,0.021581,-0.023637,-0.000688,0.005565,-0.012729,0.012908,-0.011655,0.016592,-0.014382,0.001497,0.000371,0.00493,-0.002892,0.001557
Shilluk_o2,-0.54862733,0.062963,-0.00062866667,-0.013243,-0.0022566667,-0.0064146667,-0.015902667,0.015460667,0.076696667,-0.096706667,-0.018783333,0.024128333,-0.033201,-0.0034403333,0.006786,-0.0073366667,0.02386,-0.012162333,0.017472,-0.013464667,0.000499,0.009315,-0.0010266667,-0.0018476667,0.001956
South_Sudanese,-0.5783352,0.0534168,0.0014706,-0.0062016,-0.0028928,-0.0022312,-0.0123382,0.0149303,0.0820139,-0.0985168,-0.0202012,0.0239187,-0.0418332,-0.0002479,0.0091205,-0.0165207,0.0197793,-0.0124281,0.0211298,-0.0201345,-0.0010605,0.0040062,-0.0035494,-0.0027713,0.0044906
South_Sudanese_o1,-0.584292,0.057546667,0.0077936667,-0.00075366667,-0.0025643333,-0.0011156667,-0.0028986667,0.009615,0.058698333,-0.075992333,-0.019486667,0.020232,-0.028889667,-0.00156,0.0040263333,-0.014142667,0.014777,-0.011486333,0.019232,-0.015090667,0.00033266667,0.004575,-0.004067,-0.005824,0.0025546667
South_Sudanese_o2,-0.604401,0.054839,0.015462,0.010013,-0.00277,0.003068,-0.005405,0.011538,0.021066,-0.035172,-0.004547,0.013488,-0.014717,-0.000275,0.005972,-0.010077,0.011995,-0.003041,0.005656,-0.012881,-0.000125,0.008285,-0.000986,-0.003494,-0.000599
South_Sudanese_o3,-0.528139,0.05687,-0.00792,-0.020349,0,-0.006414,-0.015276,0.016615,0.083446,-0.10023,-0.0177,0.015286,-0.034935,0.00234,0.005022,-0.016574,0.015907,-0.008742,0.016718,-0.016883,-0.000374,0.008161,-0.001356,-0.003494,0.002634
Alur_(low_res),-0.6008722,0.0563619,0.0082212,0.0111435,-0.0028929,0.0044344,0.0253108,-0.0118379,0.032499,-0.0456319,-0.01252,0.0250876,-0.0266549,-0.0022157,-0.0043296,-0.0033678,0.0011345,-0.0121494,0.0061843,-0.0089419,-0.0017971,-0.0010015,-0.0042273,-7.24E-05,0.000431
Anuak_Ethiopia,-0.57297289,0.053484611,0.0013827778,-0.0069983333,-0.0020687222,-0.0027734444,-0.0084210556,0.012845722,0.078468778,-0.096726889,-0.0198205,0.023196056,-0.039147333,-0.00080283333,0.0086032222,-0.016720944,0.021028056,-0.0083192222,0.019664667,-0.018946611,6.25E-05,0.0050903889,-0.0049161667,-0.0026375,0.0046167778
Dinka,-0.57768787,0.052839375,0.001414125,-0.00767125,-0.002971625,-0.0024228125,-0.013101938,0.015944094,0.079221063,-0.097997438,-0.020516781,0.023374438,-0.041666719,-0.00021940625,0.0086055937,-0.017464594,0.019451687,-0.011956188,0.020924844,-0.020603594,0.00076034375,0.0036594375,-0.003994,-0.0016003437,0.0059088438
Dinka_o1,-0.5850506,0.0532138,0.0067882,-0.005491,-0.0017234,-0.0011714,-0.0103404,0.015461,0.0673292,-0.082079,-0.0185448,0.0208314,-0.036184,0.001156,0.0076002,-0.0178466,0.0179668,-0.008108,0.0172204,-0.0179334,0.000125,0.0072956,-0.0077648,-0.00588,0.0040474
Dinka_o2,-0.594157,0.058901,0.010559,0.007429,0.000615,-0.001116,-0.011751,0.011076,0.03436,-0.045741,-0.010068,0.017834,-0.015015,0.000138,0.003393,-0.010872,0.015776,-0.006588,0.007668,-0.011506,-0.002496,-0.003215,0.002588,-0.003253,-0.010059
Dinka_o3,-0.547489,0.059916,-0.001508,-0.010336,0,-0.00502,-0.019976,0.017768,0.074447,-0.090571,-0.012829,0.017834,-0.036719,0.003028,0.002986,-0.008618,0.020079,-0.014949,0.018101,-0.017383,-0.000998,-0.000247,-0.006286,-0.006386,0.000958
Nuer,-0.5769205,0.054258429,0.00018871429,-0.0083749286,-0.0022201429,-0.0052791429,-0.012505929,0.015015786,0.0868495,-0.10521529,-0.021597786,0.024556714,-0.045681214,-0.0015926429,0.0074257857,-0.016242286,0.024055786,-0.012388286,0.018890571,-0.019518286,-0.00097157143,0.003692,-0.0057575714,-0.0036147857,0.0040628571
Nuer_o,-0.580498,0.049761,0.003017,-0.005814,-0.002154,-0.000558,0.01034,0.004384,0.065857,-0.092029,-0.01023,0.021581,-0.028394,-0.000275,0.002986,-0.020817,0.017732,-0.006588,0.013827,-0.02126,-0.004118,0.006925,-0.009983,-0.004579,0.008143
Luo_Kenya,-0.60141275,0.0635975,0.016734625,0.006419625,-0.002846625,0.00721625,-0.01183875,0.0153745,0.008232,-0.026902625,-0.007754,0.01221425,-0.0305125,0.000842875,-0.02320825,0.014336125,-0.016461,-0.002692125,-0.006614875,0.001063125,0.00154425,0.00058725,0.002680625,0.001687,-0.001886
Sengwer,-0.481472,0.0655015,-0.004148,-0.0289085,-0.000308,-0.014642,0.0003525,-0.001154,0.0989895,-0.096767,-0.017132,0.012139,-0.0315905,0.0002065,0.0097715,-0.0161755,0.0084095,-0.0039905,0.015461,-0.0165705,-0.000125,0.001175,-0.004252,0.001928,0.0036525
Ogiek_Kenya,-0.4336665,0.0751495,-0.009051,-0.038114,0.004924,-0.018407,0.0010575,-0.0008075,0.0918315,-0.0774505,-0.0107985,0.0077185,-0.0228195,0.0017205,0.0086185,-0.0177005,0.009583,0.002597,0.008799,-0.013819,0.006114,0.003586,-0.003944,-0.003434,0.0011375
Masai_Kenya,-0.44062189,0.075713333,-0.011648667,-0.036355444,-0.00424,-0.018561556,-0.0069195556,0.004282,0.098989556,-0.091765889,-0.016419333,0.0060778889,-0.026511,-0.00030577778,0.013089444,-0.018665667,0.023802333,-0.0048563333,0.018603333,-0.020106778,-0.00049922222,0.00043977778,-0.004341,-0.0034807778,0.0056281111
"Datog",-0.3885163,0.0802267,-0.019987,-0.0509263,0.0013333,-0.0213817,-0.0038383,0.0013847,0.1043753,-0.0793333,-0.0126123,-0.0027473,-0.0179383,-0.002982,0.015427,-0.0163083,0.0242947,-0.0021957,0.0102653,-0.0105463,0.001456,0.003751,-0.0036977,-0.0044987,-0.0036323
BiorMalual_scaled,-0.574807,0.05687,-0.000754,-0.015827,-0.007386,0.001116,-0.018331,0.017307,0.087127,-0.119182,-0.020299,0.026377,-0.049207,0.001514,0.014115,-0.008088,0.02386,-0.012162,0.023128,-0.015883,0.000499,0.000247,-0.003697,-0.003494,0.004071

 Also a few other points, proto mota pulls away from west african because of its Khoi like ancestry and its eurasian ancestry. And if you look at nilote haplogroups today, most dinka - nuer and Shilluk nilotes would have just standard East African mtdna, but groups in the equatoria region (southern part of south Sudan) would have more west and central African haplorgoups. Nilotes expanded mostly during the middle ages from the central parts of northern sudan, so its likely that most if the new ancestry (mixing with central sudanic groups and bantu and southern Cushitic groups) is recent.

    (not the best sample size, but these were the hapkogroups results of me and my friends and our relatives, my friend is dinka on his mom side and Bari on his dad side which is am eastern nilotic tribe from equatoria, they've had intermixing with central sudanic groups, so you'll see his relatives have more west and central african mtdna, while he does have and east Africa mtdna cause his mom is dinka, his ydna is central-western african, I heard even Chris rock has it, lol. but yeah , here you can see looking at my relatives they all have East African mtdna and ydna except for 1 person)
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#47
(01-09-2025, 12:41 AM)Biormalu Wrote:
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I guess that this makes sense considering that Mota's haplogroups are more closely related to those of Niger-Congo peoples. Mota's yDNA is a subclade of E-M329, which split from Niger-Congo people's most common yDNA, E-M2, ~41.4 kya; and his mtDNA is L3x2a2b, which split from one of Niger-Congo people's most common maternal haplogroups, mtDNA L3e, ~45 kya.

On the other hand, excluding their subclades of yDNA E-M35 that were imparted to them via admixture, Nilotes mainly carry yDNA A-M13 and B-M60, which are obviously much farther removed from E-M2 and the other yDNA haplogroups that Niger-Congo people carry (e.g. E-M75, E-M132, and D0). The same applies to Nilotes' mtDNA, apart from L1 and L2 (which I believe they received from a proto / Niger-Congo source during the Green Sahara or the Bantu Expansion).

I think that Nilotes descend primarily from what I call the remaining subset of Ancestral East Africans and Mota descended primarily from what I call Ancestral Northeast Africans.

The first Ancestral East Africans would have carried yDNA BT and L3'4'6'2'5'1. However, they would have later split into Ancestral Northeast Africans and the remaining Ancestral East Africans.

The remaining Ancestral East Africans would have carried yDNA B-M60 and mtDNA L6, L5, & L4.

Ancestral Northeast Africans would have carried yDNA CT and L3 (and later subclades).

Also, are you Bior from YouTube?
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#48
(01-09-2025, 01:06 AM)Inquirer Wrote:
(01-09-2025, 12:41 AM)Biormalu Wrote:
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I guess that this makes sense considering that Mota's haplogroups are more closely related to those of Niger-Congo peoples. Mota's yDNA is a subclade of E-M329, which split from Niger-Congo people's most common yDNA, E-M2, ~41.4 kya; and his mtDNA is L3x2a2b, which split from one of Niger-Congo people's most common maternal haplogroups, mtDNA L3e, ~45 kya.

On the other hand, excluding their subclades of yDNA E-M35 that were imparted to them via admixture, Nilotes mainly carry yDNA A-M13 and B-M60, which are obviously much farther removed from E-M2 and the other yDNA haplogroups that Niger-Congo people carry (e.g. E-M75, E-M132, and D0). The same applies to Nilotes' mtDNA, apart from L1 and L2 (which I believe they received from a proto / Niger-Congo source during the Green Sahara or the Bantu Expansion).

I think that Nilotes descend primarily from what I call the remaining subset of Ancestral East Africans and Mota descended primarily from what I call Ancestral Northeast Africans.

The first Ancestral East Africans would have carried yDNA BT and L3'4'6'2'5'1. However, they would have later split into Ancestral Northeast Africans and the remaining Ancestral East Africans.

The remaining Ancestral East Africans would have carried yDNA B-M60 and mtDNA L6, L5, & L4.

Ancestral Northeast Africans would have carried yDNA CT and L3 (and later subclades).

Also, are you Bior from YouTube?

yeah, lol. Im Bior. buut yea, I mean the thing is I have a friend who told me thatch E lineage you see in niger Congo and most of africa are from ancestral North Africans which imo make the most sense, and they spread with the niger Congo languages, before that intro of e1b1a most of those people wouldve likely had older lineages like certain A linages (usually from what we can see today, its the more divergent ones like A00 and whatnot) and certain B lineages similar to my friends who has a subclade of Bm60 which is bm150, the b haplohroups under m60 are pretty interesting too because b m60 includes a lot of subcladed including some which aren't East African, I think the East African or "nilo saharan" one is bm109. Also kinda petty but id call teh nilote one the north East African one, cause mota like ancestry mostly existed in teh horn and south East African while nilote and nilo saharan ancestry historically has been further north. its kinda why we see that teh admixture that separates mota from the nilo sharan population 9liek nilotes) is mainly Khoi related.
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#49
(01-09-2025, 07:05 PM)Biormalu Wrote:
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yeah, lol. Im Bior. buut yea, I mean the thing is I have a friend who told me thatch E lineage you see in niger Congo and most of africa are from ancestral North Africans which imo make the most sense, and they spread with the niger Congo languages, before that intro of e1b1a most of those people wouldve likely had older lineages like certain A linages (usually from what we can see today, its the more divergent ones like A00 and whatnot) and certain B lineages similar to my friends who has a subclade of Bm60 which is bm150, the b haplohroups under m60 are pretty interesting too because b m60 includes a lot of subcladed including some which aren't East African, I think the East African or "nilo saharan" one is bm109. Also kinda petty but id call teh nilote one the north East African one, cause mota like ancestry mostly existed in teh horn and south East African while nilote and nilo saharan ancestry historically has been further north. its kinda why we see that teh admixture that separates mota from the nilo sharan population 9liek nilotes) is mainly Khoi related.

Ancestral North Africans are typically defined as the direct paternal ancestors of the Iberomaurusians. However, the Iberomaurusians carried only E-M215 (E1b1b), particularly via E-M35 and its subclade E-M78. Contrastingly, Niger-Congo peoples carry subclades of E-M2 and Mota carried a subclade of E-M329, both of which are direct subclades of E-V38 (E1b1a).

E-V38 and E-M215 diverged from E-P177 / E-M5557 ~41,400 years ago, according to YFull. It's highly unlikely that E-V38 and E-M215 both originated and diversified into their numerous subclades within the same population for the past ~41,400 years ago; that's simply not how haplogroups diversifiy. The only way that a haplogroup can diversify into major macro-subclades (subclades that have countless subclades of their own) that have clear geographical barriers is for them to originate in geographically seperated sibling lineages.

In other words, there was an ancestral population that carried E-P177 / E-M5557, and it split into two populations that became geographically separated: one that remained in Northeast Africa and carried E-M215, and another that spread southwards into sub-Saharan Africa and carried E-V38.

You also have to consider that Niger-Congo peoples and Omotic peoples (peoples with Mota-like ancestry in the Horn of Africa) both also carry E-M75, and that Niger-Congo peoples also carry E-M132. The divergences of these subclades of E-M96 are even older than those of E-V38 and E-M215, and they are the rarest subclades of E-M96 (especially E-M75). This further indicates that Ancestral North Africans could not have been the source of all E-M96 subclades; rather, they were the source of just a single lineage of E-M96 (i.e. E-M215 / E1b1b).

All of the other peoples who carried subclades of E-M96 migrated into sub-Saharan Africa; those who carried E-M75 probably migrated first, followed by carriers of E-M132 (who displaced most of the E-M75 carriers), and then followed by carriers of E-V38 (who displaced most of the E-M75 and E-M132 carriers).

By the way, carriers of E-M96 lineages would have been a subset of whom I call Ancestral Northeast Africans; I believe that they were an offshoot of Ancestral East Africans, who migrated from sub-Saharan East Africa into the Northeast African portion of the Sahara (Sudan) when it was green. They would have been the source of yDNA CT and L3 lineages, and they would have migrated out of the region in different directions when the Sahara began transitioning to a desert.

Those who carried the pre-cursors of yDNA D-M174, C-M130 & F-M89 - as well as mtDNA L3-M & L3-N - would have migrated through Egypt and out of Africa. Those who carried the pre-cursor of E-M215 would have migrated to Egypt and then spread westward therefrom (and perhaps eastwards to the Northeast African coast of the Red Sea). And those who carried all other lineages of E-M96 and L3 would have migrated southwards into sub-Saharan Africa, which would explain why most subclades of E-M96 and L3 (i.e. L3a, L3b'c'd, L3e'i'k'x, L3f & L3h) are carried in sub-Saharan Africa.

Upon arriving in sub-Saharan Africa, the carriers of E-M96 and L3 subclades would have admixed with peoples who carried older yDNA (e.g. A00, A0, A-M13, B-M60, etc) and older mtDNA (e.g. L1, L5, L2, L6 & L4).

Note that according to Lipson et al (2020), the overwhelming majority of the ancestry in Niger-Congo peoples and Mota(-like) peoples derived from whom I call Ancestral Northeast Africans (e.g. 69% to 88%); see Figure 4, Figure 5 and Figure S3.17. This would explain your conclusion that Mota (minus his SAHG and Eurasian admixture) is closer to Niger-Congo peoples than Nilotes; Mota and Niger-Congo peoples are predominantly Ancestral Northeast African while Nilotes are predominantly Ancestral East African. 

Here's a diagram that I created and that represents what I've explained.

[Image: attachment.php?aid=2559]
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#50
(01-09-2025, 09:05 PM)Inquirer Wrote: Ancestral North Africans are typically defined as the direct paternal ancestors of the Iberomaurusians. However, the Iberomaurusians carried only E-M215 (E1b1b), particularly via E-M35 and its subclade E-M78. Contrastingly, Niger-Congo peoples carry subclades of E-M2 and Mota carried a subclade of E-M329, both of which are direct subclades of E-V38 (E1b1a).

E-V38 and E-M215 diverged from E-P177 / E-M5557 ~41,400 years ago, according to YFull. It's highly unlikely that E-V38 and E-M215 both originated and diversified into their numerous subclades within the same population for the past ~41,400 years ago; that's simply not how haplogroups diversifiy. The only way that a haplogroup can diversify into major macro-subclades (subclades that have countless subclades of their own) that have clear geographical barriers is for them to originate in geographically seperated sibling lineages.

In other words, there was an ancestral population that carried E-P177 / E-M5557, and it split into two populations that became geographically separated: one that remained in Northeast Africa and carried E-M215, and another that spread southwards into sub-Saharan Africa and carried E-V38.

You also have to consider that Niger-Congo peoples and Omotic peoples (peoples with Mota-like ancestry in the Horn of Africa) both also carry E-M75, and that Niger-Congo peoples also carry E-M132. The divergences of these subclades of E-M96 are even older than those of E-V38 and E-M215, and they are the rarest subclades of E-M96 (especially E-M75). This further indicates that Ancestral North Africans could not have been the source of all E-M96 subclades; rather, they were the source of just a single lineage of E-M96 (i.e. E-M215 / E1b1b).

All of the other peoples who carried subclades of E-M96 migrated into sub-Saharan Africa; those who carried E-M75 probably migrated first, followed by carriers of E-M132 (who displaced most of the E-M75 carriers), and then followed by carriers of E-V38 (who displaced most of the E-M75 and E-M132 carriers).

Looking at the major branching events of E.

52-50kbp: E emerges and diversifies into 4 branches...
- pre-E2
- pre-FTA45776/CTS9083 (rare lineage, only 3 samples)
- pre-M132 (E1a?) (TMRCA 19kbp, Western distribution)
- pre-M5557 (E1b?)

50-41kbp: No branching.

41-37kbp:
- E2 splits into pre-M41 (TMRCA 16kbp, Eastern distribution), pre-M98 (TMRCA 17kbp, Western distribution)
- E-M5557 splits into pre-M215 and V38. V38 then splits into pre-M329 (TMRCA 26kbp and ancestral to Mota), and pre-M2 (TMRCA 16kbp).

35kbp: M215 splits into V16 (TRMCA 4kbp), and M35 (TMRCA 24kbp)

35-26kbp: No branching.

The ~simultaneous branching events in E2 and E1b could be considered evidence in favor of them being in the same population, and the sustained lack of branching events, both in the 50-41kbp and 35-26kbp periods, suggests one or more of the following...
- E did not have a large geographic spread <26kbp
- E was restricted to one ecozone <26kbp
- A major climatic event was able to detrimentally effect E across large a geographic range and/or multiple ecozones.

The huge gap between the split and TMRCA of E1a also leaves open the possibility that it could have been anywhere, including the same neighborhood as the rest of E.
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#51
(01-10-2025, 12:15 AM)Kale Wrote:
(01-09-2025, 09:05 PM)Inquirer Wrote: Ancestral North Africans are typically defined as the direct paternal ancestors of the Iberomaurusians. However, the Iberomaurusians carried only E-M215 (E1b1b), particularly via E-M35 and its subclade E-M78. Contrastingly, Niger-Congo peoples carry subclades of E-M2 and Mota carried a subclade of E-M329, both of which are direct subclades of E-V38 (E1b1a).

E-V38 and E-M215 diverged from E-P177 / E-M5557 ~41,400 years ago, according to YFull. It's highly unlikely that E-V38 and E-M215 both originated and diversified into their numerous subclades within the same population for the past ~41,400 years ago; that's simply not how haplogroups diversifiy. The only way that a haplogroup can diversify into major macro-subclades (subclades that have countless subclades of their own) that have clear geographical barriers is for them to originate in geographically seperated sibling lineages.

In other words, there was an ancestral population that carried E-P177 / E-M5557, and it split into two populations that became geographically separated: one that remained in Northeast Africa and carried E-M215, and another that spread southwards into sub-Saharan Africa and carried E-V38.

You also have to consider that Niger-Congo peoples and Omotic peoples (peoples with Mota-like ancestry in the Horn of Africa) both also carry E-M75, and that Niger-Congo peoples also carry E-M132. The divergences of these subclades of E-M96 are even older than those of E-V38 and E-M215, and they are the rarest subclades of E-M96 (especially E-M75). This further indicates that Ancestral North Africans could not have been the source of all E-M96 subclades; rather, they were the source of just a single lineage of E-M96 (i.e. E-M215 / E1b1b).

All of the other peoples who carried subclades of E-M96 migrated into sub-Saharan Africa; those who carried E-M75 probably migrated first, followed by carriers of E-M132 (who displaced most of the E-M75 carriers), and then followed by carriers of E-V38 (who displaced most of the E-M75 and E-M132 carriers).

Looking at the major branching events of E.

52-50kbp: E emerges and diversifies into 4 branches...
- pre-E2
- pre-FTA45776/CTS9083 (rare lineage, only 3 samples)
- pre-M132 (E1a?) (TMRCA 19kbp, Western distribution)
- pre-M5557 (E1b?)

50-41kbp: No branching.

41-37kbp:
- E2 splits into pre-M41 (TMRCA 16kbp, Eastern distribution), pre-M98 (TMRCA 17kbp, Western distribution)
- E-M5557 splits into pre-M215 and V38. V38 then splits into pre-M329 (TMRCA 26kbp and ancestral to Mota), and pre-M2 (TMRCA 16kbp).

35kbp: M215 splits into V16 (TRMCA 4kbp), and M35 (TMRCA 24kbp)

35-26kbp: No branching.

The ~simultaneous branching events in E2 and E1b could be considered evidence in favor of them being in the same population, and the sustained lack of branching events, both in the 50-41kbp and 35-26kbp periods, suggests one or more of the following...
- E did not have a large geographic spread <26kbp
- E was restricted to one ecozone <26kbp
- A major climatic event was able to detrimentally effect E across large a geographic range and/or multiple ecozones.

The huge gap between the split and TMRCA of E1a also leaves open the possibility that it could have been anywhere, including the same neighborhood as the rest of E.

I believe that subclades of E-M96 were carried by various peoples in the Sahara during the latest Green Sahara period. Some of these peoples would have been the ancestors of Niger-Congo peoples and others would have been the ancestors of Mota-like peoples. Each of these peoples would have been offshoots of Ancestral Northeast Africans (yDNA CT & L3) mixed with offshoots of Ghost Modern humans (yDNA A00) and older lineages of Anatomically Modern Humans (yDNA A0, mtDNA L1 & L2). This would explain the following: why Lipson et al (2020) models both Niger-Congo peoples and Mota as having derived the bulk of their ancestries (69% to 88%) from whom I call Ancestral Northeast Africans, and why the paper models large minorities of their ancestries from Ghost Modern humans.

Given the older TMRCA of E-M329, the ancestors of Mota-like peoples likely migrated out of the Sahara earlier than those of Niger-Congo peoples; given that the Eastern portion of the Sahara is closer to the Nile River and the Red Sea, they likely migrated along the Nile or the Red Sea, all the while subsisting on fish and moving southwards into the Horn of Africa.

As for Niger-Congo peoples, their ancestors would have migrated into West Africa as the last Green Sahara period came to an end ~8 kya. Indication of this is Joel D. Irish's discovery of human remains in Niger (the lower Sahara) that share the same morphology as Niger-Congo peoples and that are ~10 ka (Source).

As for why there are huge temporal gaps between the formation dates of E-M96 lineages and their TMRCAs, it would be due to bottleneck events that would have occurred upon their arrival in sub-Saharan Africa; the region is notorious for disease outbreaks the stem from interactions between the humans and diverse wildlife therein. Large percentages of Ancestral Mota-like peoples and Niger-Congo peoples would have died off upon arriving in sub-Saharan Africa. The survivors would have been small subsets of their populations, whose common ancestors would have lived much more recently than the common ancestors that they would have shared with the casualties; the smaller a population is, the more recently that their most recent common ancestor lived.

Note that you should not consider E-M96 in a vacuum; you have to also consider mtDNA L3, which is closely associated with E-M96 (via the relation between yDNA CT and mtDNA L3). Niger-Congo peoples and Mota-like peoples all carry subclades of L3 (L3a, L3b'c'd', L3e'i'k'x, L3f & L3h) in addition to subclades of E-M96. Given the very different divergence dates of these haplogroups, it's highly unlikely that Niger-Congo peoples and Mota-like peoples coincidentally derived all of them from (a) source(s) to which they are only distantly related, especially considering that these haplogroups are virtually exclusive to them. Rather, they likely derived the bulk of their ancestries from the population that produced the precursors of these haplogroups (i.e. Ancestral Northeast Africans).
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#52
Maybe not super relevant, but I can't think of a better place to put this; a few random qpadm of Sahel and West African populations.
right = c('SouthAfrica_2000BP.SG', 'Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'Cameroon_ShumLaka_8000BP.DG', 'Ethiopia_Mota_4500BP.SG', 'Morocco_OUB002_Epipaleolithic.SG', 'Anatolia_Barcin_N.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'RUS_Arkhangelsk_HG.SG', 'Yamnaya_Kazakhstan_Karagash.SG', 'Botai.SG', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

Chad_Laka.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.826452 0.0521961 15.8336
Sudan_Dinka.DG 0.173548 0.0521961 3.32493
Tail: 0.84

Chad_Bulala.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.280352 0.0643885 4.35407
Sudan_Dinka.DG 0.583046 0.0682455 8.54336
Sardinia_CA_NAF 0.136603 0.00858859 15.9051
Tail: 0.14

Cameroon_Fulani.DG
Chad_Laka.DG 0.573015 0.0113012 50.7038
Sardinia_CA_NAF 0.426985 0.0113012 37.7822
Tail: 0.10
(I15940 was the only single source of non-SSA ancestry I could get to pass)

CAR_Kaba.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.850379 0.0532878 15.9582
Sudan_Dinka.DG 0.149621 0.0532878 2.80780
Tail: 0.54

Senegal_Mandenka.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.964040 0.00474108 203.338
Sardinia_CA_NAF 0.0359596 0.00474108 7.58468
Tail: 0.12

SierraLeone_Mende.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.961095 0.0103975 92.4355
Neanderthal_Altai.DG 0.0389055 0.0103975 3.74182
Tail: 0.22
(Don't take the Neanderthal literally, just needs something deep, maybe Aterian or extra 'A00 ancestry' or something?)
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#53
(01-10-2025, 04:02 AM)Kale Wrote: Maybe not super relevant, but I can't think of a better place to put this; a few random qpadm of Sahel and West African populations.
right = c('SouthAfrica_2000BP.SG', 'Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'Cameroon_ShumLaka_8000BP.DG', 'Ethiopia_Mota_4500BP.SG', 'Morocco_OUB002_Epipaleolithic.SG', 'Anatolia_Barcin_N.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'CHG.SG', 'Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG', 'RUS_Arkhangelsk_HG.SG', 'Yamnaya_Kazakhstan_Karagash.SG', 'Botai.SG', 'Andaman_100BP.SG', 'Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

Chad_Laka.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.826452 0.0521961 15.8336
Sudan_Dinka.DG    0.173548 0.0521961  3.32493
Tail: 0.84

Chad_Bulala.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.280352 0.0643885  4.35407
Sudan_Dinka.DG    0.583046 0.0682455  8.54336
Sardinia_CA_NAF  0.136603 0.00858859 15.9051
Tail: 0.14

Cameroon_Fulani.DG
Chad_Laka.DG    0.573015 0.0113012 50.7038
Sardinia_CA_NAF 0.426985 0.0113012 37.7822
Tail: 0.10
(I15940 was the only single source of non-SSA ancestry I could get to pass)

CAR_Kaba.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.850379 0.0532878 15.9582
Sudan_Dinka.DG    0.149621 0.0532878  2.80780
Tail: 0.54

Senegal_Mandenka.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.964040  0.00474108 203.338 
Sardinia_CA_NAF  0.0359596 0.00474108  7.58468
Tail: 0.12

SierraLeone_Mende.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG    0.961095  0.0103975 92.4355
Neanderthal_Altai.DG 0.0389055 0.0103975  3.74182
Tail: 0.22
(Don't take the Neanderthal literally, just needs something deep, maybe Aterian or extra 'A00 ancestry' or something?)


What do you think that these results indicate?
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#54
I'm not really sure what the greater implications are, you're more knowledgable than me on African matters, what do you think it means?

Or this?
Kenya_Kakapel_LSA_Kansyore
Sudan_Dinka.DG 0.657914 0.0248834 26.4399
Malawi_Hora_8500BP.SG 0.342086 0.0248834 13.7476
Tail: 0.24
right = c('Neanderthal_Altai.DG', 'SouthAfrica_2000BP.SG', 'Cameroon_ShumLaka_8000BP.DG', 'Ethiopia_Mota_4500BP.SG', 'Morocco_OUB002_Epipaleolithic.SG', 'ZlatyKun.SG', 'Sunghir.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'Andaman_100BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE
Significant overfit to Yoruba if they are added to right.

Also I forgot one earlier...
Gambian.DG
Nigeria_Yoruba.DG 0.955141 0.00619564 154.164
Sardinia_CA_NAF 0.0448590 0.00619564 7.24042
Tail: 0.56
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#55
(12-31-2024, 03:26 AM)Inquirer Wrote:
  • Ancient Egyptians migrated into the Horn of Africa ~3 kya and were absorbed by Cushites and some Omotic peoples.
  • Arabians migrated into the Horn of Africa sometime after the birth of Islam and were absorbed by Cushitic and Omotic peoples.

I think you're missing the folks who brought the Southern Semitic languages and Yemeni-like admixture during the Bronze Age collapse.
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#56
@Kale

What are the higher quality ancient African samples in the Reich dataset that you recommend using for any sort of analysis? Bonus for the ones that lack any obvious Eurasian/Cushitic admixture. There's tons of ancient East Africans (Malawi, Kenya, and Tanzania) but I don't know which are low quality and best avoiding.
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#57
South-Africa 400/1900/2000/2200 BP, ShumLaka, Mota. That's about it for superb quality, a good number of the Cushitics are moderate coverage, KPL001 (~2000BC Kenya) is moderate coverage and appears to lack any Cushitic mixture. I8821 (Tanzania 5KBC) is good quality.
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