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C-V86 thread
#16
(12-26-2023, 02:51 AM)Kale Wrote: Could you describe what you mean by 'less basal form of WHG'?

WHG are essentially a 2-way mix of AHG + Vestonice.,but the weighting of these components might be different, e.g. Italian WHG have more Vestonice, less AHG, + Ive even seen fits with them requiring some Fournal-related admixture (Western Europe-> Tyrrhenian Gravettian). 

I.G., on the other hand, have more AHG (but this represents a complex- bidirectional formulation) . EHG have even more AHG/ Dzudzuana type ancestry (consistent with Lazaridies "Dzudzuana" fig 6)
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#17
(12-24-2023, 11:55 PM)pkchu Wrote:
(12-24-2023, 07:35 PM)kolompar Wrote: You are right, they are all farmers. I got a bit carried away with my Caucasus theory with all the haplogroups. I blame OP for misguiding me. Big Grin
There's also a Minoan on that branch and a modern Pontic Greek/Turk. So you might just have to go with the simple explanation that it's just a minor Anatolian line, and the C-V86 ancestor at 20k BC was in Anatolia (or wherever the ancestor of Anatolian farmers was). That is around the end of the LGM, probably still not time for a larger migration.
A lot of these splits seem to coincide with such natural events, C-V20 TMRCA is estimated at around 40k BC, roughly the same as that between I and J, which is the time of the Campanian Ignimbrite eruption which could have wiped out South/East Europe's population, leaving it to be repopulated from somewhere else.

There's no primordialistic entity as 'Anatolian Farmers' which existed in Anatolia since 20000 bc.
A more detailed understanding of C1a-V20 reveals a different picture. Within C1a-V20 there are 2 clades.  C-BY1463 has not been found in a single Anatolian individual, despite scores of prehistoric Anatolian data, but has already been found from in high HG ancestry individuals with an east Carpathian focus. The second subclade within C1a-V20 is C-PH428, which is found in both Anatolia and European side of the Bosoprus. And given that upstream of C-V3163 can be found in Dolni Vestonice, Goyet, etc, it's actually a no brainer.

Please enlighten us with your more detailed understanding because you just restated what's already been posted.
The Balkans is way better sampled than Anatolia, both modern and ancient. There's only around a hundred pre-Bronze Age samples from Turkey and already by the Neolithic there was a haplogroup J takeover while the South/East was always more J/E heavy. Not a lot of chance for a line that might be a few percent to show up.
On the other hand there's around 50 Mesolithic samples just from Serbia/Romania Iron Gates, and around 200 from Neolithic/Chalcolithic Balkans. At this point the Balkans should be a better representation of Anatolian farmer haplogroup diversity than Anatolia itself, while I don't know why we would want to go by the farmers' haplogroups for Mesolithic. There's even more Mesolithic/"Neolithic" HGs from Ukraine than farmers.
The Romanian and Ukrainian C-BY1463 guys are both 80+% Anatolian, the Minoan has around 1% WHG, and Pontians are mostly assimilated locals so the modern sample should be informative too.
Why would the haplogroup come from such minority ancestry, instead of the overwhelming majority? Especially when the closest relative is also clearly Anatolian?
How do you explain a large migration from barely inhabitable Ice Age Europe? Why would it be a line that isn't even found there in the Mesolithic, and not the major I2 and U5 haplogroups?
How is the 40k BC split telling us anything? It's such an early date that there's no reason to put it in Europe as people would have just arrived there (from where do you think?). But we actually have the Balkans sampled at that period and we know those people went extinct and were replaced by the ancestors of later C-V20 people.
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#18
Quarterly straw report. A while back I dove into Geni pages for several of the C-V222 paternal ancestors listed on the ftdna C haplogroup page. Have no idea at all how reliable Geni is, but the information on that site at least might sometimes be accurate.

Noticed that 2 of the English C-V222 paternal ancestors listed likely traced their paternal roots to France. They have Anglicized French surnames from families that moved to England after the Norman conquest (I don't know how frequently non-French English adopted French last names back in the day though). I'm assuming Scottish surnames are typically less good for deep genealogical digging.

There's also a modern C-V20 man (who's probably V222+?) who used to be on the Facebook C page who's from Northern France & I believe might have had a Flemish last name (?) (this is the strawest of the straws).

I've been thinking that the NW V222 grouping was centered in modern day France once upon a time though. V222 might have entered Britain during multiple eras from France. It doesn't seem to be in Beaker or Germanic etc samples.

This at least wouldn't not align with a potential Greek/Italian origin of most if not all V222 lines in my view. It just would also align with 1,000,000,000,000 other hypotheses as well, many of which would include celts etc w/ ties to eastern central Europe.

I think V222's mrca *probably* traced his paternal origin to the Hungarian/Ukrainian/Bulgarian V3918/V182 hotspot but the line might have broken away from that region very early on and moved south into or near modern day Greece or southwest (or into Anatolia, or obviously could have been there to begin with / Kydonia's paternal ancestors could have been near eastern in their not so distant past).

It's also not completely out of the realm of possibility Kydonia's line came from Italy like the globetrekker feature is suggesting. There are archaeological ties between Italy and Mycenaean Greece (Kydonia appears to have mainland admixture to me) and I think very early genetic links between the regions have been shown in some sheep/goat gene sequencing too (this is the 2nd strawest straw probably). Quite the time to be alive. But imagine the movements of people likely was more Greece ----> Italy during that period/there were more Greek/Aegean commercial centers.
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#19
Becoming fond of the idea that the most recent C-V222 common ancestor was from Greece. I think that's likely now.

Kydonia's current location on the tree is doing 98% of the lifting, but taking some large leaps and looking at modern samples from the C project map + various corners of the web, you've got at least 1 in Calabria very close to Crotone/Kroton, 1 in Aegean Turkey, the few in Greece, etc. I think a simplified map line for the British-origin C-V222 testers would roughly be Greece ----> [Italy ------>] France -----> Britain. The ties to Ukraine and Romania aren't pointing to the C-V222 common ancestor having lived around there, even though that region could well have been where C-V222 came from initially. That's my half-new guess for the month.
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#20
Ok 1 more speculation. Basically substance-free. Some of the British C-V222 branches might have relatively recent ties to Greece & the Peloponnese in particular. There were in fact Stratioti bouncing around the region in the 16th century (and also Greeks in general but not many and they were mostly in London by the looks of it). Stratioti, I just learned, were light cavalry men, who were mostly Albanian but some were Peloponnesian/some would've been both. They were hired by Venetians and the French and also, relevant to this post, by Henry VIII to guard shipments and raid and pillage in the Scottish borders. They were known for their horsemanship and also for robbing their employers and for bravery. There were Stratioti in England and the Scottish Borders region during the reign of Henry the VIII. They wore clothing that was apparently vaguely similar to the clothing Scots wore. This has been the facts based part of the post.

Maybe some of the Peloponnesian Stratioi rode off to live among border reivers. Border reivers were "raiders along the Anglo-Scottish border from the late 13th century to the beginning of the 17th century. They included both Scottish and English people, and they raided the entire border country without regard to their victims' nationality. Their heyday was in the last hundred years of their existence, during the time of the House of Stuart in the Kingdom of Scotland and the House of Tudor in the Kingdom of England." (wikipedia) Given some of the surnames on the C Project and their earliest known ancestor locations & the Border Reiver ftdna project, V222 might have had a fairly respectable border reiver representation. There's also a Greek V222 whose last name sounds quite a lot like one of the Scottish V222 samples'. The dates would line up nicely with one of the English branches rather than the Scottish ones, but I feel this has been worthy of a thread blog post. Thank you. I'd assign about a 0.2% probability to this scenario.
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#21
Some unnecessary water muddying: Looked at XAN_035 again on the Vahaduo PCAs. Had it in my head that he (an infant) was half-Minoan (and he probably was) and half-Greek. So a mainlander, about 300 years before the rest of the XAN samples, headed over and had a son with a Minoan woman, but he could well have been born to 2 mainlanders or to another type of 2-way combination. I'm imagining, if he does mark an early contact between Greeks and Minoans on Crete, that the father came over alone rather than with the mother though. Just assuming the V222 is associated with a non-Minoan father and that Xan_035 was first generation x+y for argument's sake.

Xan_035's basically within the Mycenaean cluster but seems slightly shifted toward Greece_N's probably vs. the sampled Minoans, which would be easily explained by a little extra Greece_N in a non-Minoan father, but could maybe be hinting at a different parentage story. For him to be half-Minoan he'd have needed a mainlander parent who probably would cluster somewhere a little to the "south" of the Mygdalia Greek samples by the looks of it, assuming the SW shift isn't due to sample damage, and I don't know if that's as likely as him having a mainlander father who looked more like the other Mycenaeans (not that xan_035 doesn't look a lot like the other Mycenaeans). Although assuming earlier Mycenaeans had a little more "W" Greece_N wiggle room than more consolidated later Mycenaeans and also who knows how much early Greek variation there was.

Annoyingly/interestingly, he also looks like he could be half Minoan if his mother or father, probably father, clustered somewhere with the Sicily BA guys. Xan_035's burial is linked to the Greek mainland in the Skourtanioti supplementary document, but I imagine burials of that kind weren't completely unique to the Greek mainland and could have been common elsewhere outside the Minoan world. Xan_035 could have been completely non-Greek. Based exclusively on me, a non-expert, looking at a PCA and not understanding how to use other tools.

But I think the simpler explanation is Xan_035 was about half Greek and half Minoan. And I think maybe all of the Italian V222 representation ultimately came from Greece. The modern sample in Veneto can be explained by a Magna Graecian lineage moving north over hundreds to thousands of years or to Byzantine Greeks/Venetian Greeks moving to Venice fleeing the Ottomans/seeking economic opportunities etc., among countless other explanations for how it got there.
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#22
(09-13-2024, 01:56 AM)Running4Borders Wrote: Some unnecessary water muddying:  Looked at XAN_035 again on the Vahaduo PCAs.  Had it in my head that he (an infant) was half-Minoan (and he probably was) and half-Greek.  So a mainlander, about 300 years before the rest of the XAN samples, headed over and had a son with a Minoan woman, but he could well have been born to 2 mainlanders or to another type of 2-way combination.  I'm imagining, if he does mark an early contact between Greeks and Minoans on Crete, that the father came over alone rather than with the mother though.  Just assuming the V222 is associated with a non-Minoan father and that Xan_035 was first generation x+y for argument's sake.

Xan_035's basically within the Mycenaean cluster but seems slightly shifted toward Greece_N's probably vs. the sampled Minoans, which would be easily explained by a little extra Greece_N in a non-Minoan father, but could maybe be hinting at a different parentage story.  For him to be half-Minoan he'd have needed a mainlander parent who probably would cluster somewhere a little to the "south" of the Mygdalia Greek samples by the looks of it, assuming the SW shift isn't due to sample damage, and I don't know if that's as likely as him having a mainlander father who looked more like the other Mycenaeans (not that xan_035 doesn't look a lot like the other Mycenaeans).  Although assuming earlier Mycenaeans had a little more "W" Greece_N wiggle room than more consolidated later Mycenaeans and also who knows how much early Greek variation there was. 

Annoyingly/interestingly, he also looks like he could be half Minoan if his mother or father, probably father, clustered somewhere with the Sicily BA guys.  Xan_035's burial is linked to the Greek mainland in the Skourtanioti supplementary document, but I imagine burials of that kind weren't completely unique to the Greek mainland and could have been common elsewhere outside the Minoan world.  Xan_035 could have been completely non-Greek.  Based exclusively on me, a non-expert, looking at a PCA and not understanding how to use other tools. 

But I think the simpler explanation is Xan_035 was about half Greek and half Minoan.  And I think maybe all of the Italian V222 representation ultimately came from Greece.  The modern sample in Veneto can be explained by a Magna Graecian lineage moving north over hundreds to thousands of years or to Byzantine Greeks/Venetian Greeks moving to Venice fleeing the Ottomans/seeking economic opportunities etc., among countless other explanations for how it got there. 

According to my calculations, XAN35 is best suited to the Early Helladic culture. He has ancestors from the Balkan and Anatolian Neolithic and the Baden culture. I agree with your conclusions. His closest matches:

[Image: pE9oV5fN_o.png]
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#23
Alright I'm being impatient. The image is too blurry in the supplements, post might need scrapping.

I think the V222 Cypriot in Yediay is a second case of it showing up in a guy on the western/GreeceN fringe of the Mycenaean cluster. The bar chart he's on is showing elevated-looking GreeceN ancestry as well for him.

Keen to read into this despite 1) not being able to read the PCA I'm basing it on, 2) the 1k year age difference between CGG_2_105031 and Kydonia35, 3) blurring Y lines and autosomal stuff. Maybe this coincidence is pointing to a picture where V222 made its way to Greece before the Greeks and was passed on to Greeks by a native group there.

Skourtanioti supplements and some googling (+gpt) seems to tie both Kydonia and potentially the new guy to the Argolid. Not sure if that area was considered extra Pelasgian for instance--a youtube video I just watched said it was according to Herodotus, for what that's worth. Invented an uplifting backstory for Kydonia where he was the son of a Pelasgian slave (who would have been genetically almost identical to Mycenaeans) who'd been sold by Mycenaeans to work in a Minoan Palace kitchen. He was buried in a kitchen's wall and his death was likely due to maternal undernourishment. Maybe Mycenaeans segregated themselves and enslaved certain (related) groups more than others. Could be something. Or maybe this worked both ways and didn't involve slavery, assuming there were 2 distinct-enough ethnic groups into even the LBA for this to work both ways on.

Nothing's ruling out a Greek_N V222 link as far as I can tell, besides maybe you'd expect some V222 outside Greece among Greek pitstopping farmers who moved to the north. If it did come down from around where the Romanian/Ukrainian etc upstream ancient samples are from initially, it could have happened at any point between ~12000 BCE and when Greek-speakers entered Greece. Also still consistent with it entering from Anatolia (or elsewhere, it's only been found in Crete and Cyprus now--they just both look like their ancestry came from the mainland).

Hoping more downstream markers are found for the Boeotian V20, can't find his bar graph location right now.
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#24
I'm thinking (guessing), during the Mycenaean period, C-V222 was centered somewhere around Boeotia among people who were slightly less-Minoan/Anatolian shifted and more Greece_N shifted than their southern neighbors.

Ignoring the possibility that the new Boeotian V20 might be V222: the Kastrouli/Delphi BA samples from Southern Arc have a western/greece N looking shift (on PCA) that looks partially comparable to XAN_35's (XAN35 is probably too old to count in this way).

Know this is a leap considering it's only been found in Crete and Cyprus so far.
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#25
[Image: L36CU81.png]
[Image: sBYnz3z.png]
[Image: 21MLZaL.png]

Pretty sure the first 1 is the Amathus V222 (purple = Greece, green = Cyprus), 2nd is his bar graph, 3rd is Kydonia. Not sure if coincidence. ~1000 years removed from one another so probably is. Excess Greece EBA in both compared to other Mycenaeans.

Amathus the V222 was buried as though he was a local, as far as I can tell (maybe I'm wrong about this, his grave was very slightly removed from the others in the study), so a descendant of the Mycenaeans who settled there a few hundred years earlier. But Amathus the location around 700BC had strong trade ties to Euboea and Attica and the Argolid and Corinth and probably everywhere else in the Aegean while we're at it, I don't know I don't know.

The yellow circles in the top picture are published Sicilian samples I believe, it could also be Amathus the V222 was from some portion of mainland Greece where there was some western Mediterranean ancestry by the iron age. But I think that'd be a more or less dead end here. The yellow circles could also be Himera guys.

Know it doesn't follow from excess Greece EBA that V222 was in Greece pre-Greeks, but maybe. I think it probably wasn't in Greece pre-Greeks though. Came down from somewhere in the Balkans and, maybe if the elevated EBA isn't just a coincidence, was mostly huddled up with a specific group of Greeks north of the Peloponnese during the BA potentially. Or not.
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